Post-War Germany Divided Between North and South

When reading about he cultural differences between North Germany and South Germany, it made me wonder; what if the Allies had divided Germany between North and South? Which side would be occupied by the Soviet Union and which side would be partitioned between France, the United Kingdom, and the United States? What would be the longterm effects of a divided North and South Germany?
 
Considering how the Soviets were invading from the east, and the Western Allies from (yes) the west, it's extremely unlikely a world situation like OTL's would end up with Germany divided between north and south. You'd either need a hugely different military situation at the end of the war (perhaps one side or the other never gets into Germany at all?) or some other quarrel to become more significant than Soviet/West struggle.
 
There were a number of different maps proposed for a postwar division of Germany at Yalta. This is the one proposed by Churchill - which included not only Austria, but Hungary.

IMG_1904.jpg


Now, it's doubtful that Austria would've been included in any postwar German state, and Hungary would have been absolutely out of the question, but something like this is probably your best bet.
 

raharris1973

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When reading about he cultural differences between North Germany and South Germany, it made me wonder; what if the Allies had divided Germany between North and South? Which side would be occupied by the Soviet Union and which side would be partitioned between France, the United Kingdom, and the United States? What would be the longterm effects of a divided North and South Germany?


It is not a very feasible idea but it seems to me the Soviets having the north and the Wallies the south is far more realistic than the reverse.
 
It is not a very feasible idea but it seems to me the Soviets having the north and the Wallies the south is far more realistic than the reverse.
Well, if the Soviets occupy South Germany, they would be next door to Hungary and Czechoslovakia, but if they occupy North Germany, they'd be next door to Poland. I wonder how Denmark would feel about Communist North Germany.
 
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It is not a very feasible idea but it seems to me the Soviets having the north and the Wallies the south is far more realistic than the reverse.

Then again Churchill wouldn't be too thrilled about the Soviets having access to North Sea ports and controlling the Kiel channel. Given how Britain kept Russia out of the Bosporus for the entire 19th and and the first half of the 20th century they most likely wouldn't want them in Hamburg and/or Bremen either. Also this would probably lead to Denmark getting 'finlandized' if not even occupied for a while (OTL the Soviet troops stayed on Bornholm until April 1946)
 

raharris1973

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Of course Britain's military and conference table weight is the least of the big three.

This could even be a result of an "own goal" where Alanbrooke and Churchill succeed in maximally delaying D-Day and their reward is having the Soviets reach the Danish and Dutch borders first.
 
If Germany had been invaded from Italy or other routes through the south you might end up with a Soviet North and WAllies south potentially?
 
The border between the Lower German, Middle German and High German dialects goes west-east, not north-south. The estrangement between TTL's Germanies might be bigger than IOTL.
 

Deleted member 94680

The border between the Lower German, Middle German and High German dialects goes west-east, not north-south. The estrangement between TTL's Germanies might be bigger than IOTL.

There’s more chance of a North-South split lasting after the Cold War as two separate countries compared to an East-West IMO.
 
What comes to mind is the Soviets take worse industrial losses and demand some of the Rhineland and Danish or North German ports to avoid blockade. This is seen as more palatable than dividing Norway into North and South. In exchange, Austria and Bavaria merge as a WAllied power.

Maybe you also see Czechia broken off as a Finlandized Neutral (taking OTL Austria's role) in exchange for a Finlandized, pro-Soviet Denmark.
 

Deleted member 94680

Also, was there any element of dividing Prussia in the East-West split? I mean, I know it was the ‘frontline’ between the WAllies and the Soviets, but it also split Prussia in half as well.

With Churchill (his WWI experience and keen knowledge of history, etc) and his ilk on the WAllied side, was there a worry a North-South split would essentially make it ‘Prussia vs. South Germany’? Once the post-War recovery began, was there a worry that a resurgent Prussia could start it all over again?
 
From the Teheran Conference, here are FDR's proposal (which as he acknowledged was "merely exploratory") to break up Germany and Churchill's proposal to separate southern Germany from the rest of Germany and make it into part of a Danubian federation. (The latter idea probably had very little chance; as this transcript indicates, Stalin was firmly opposed to it.)

***

Roosevelt: The question of Germany.

Stalin: What are the proposals on this matter?

Roosevelt: The partition of Germany.

Churchill: I am for partitioning Germany. But I should like to consider
the question of partitioning Prussia. I am for separating Bavaria and the
other provinces from Germany.

Roosevelt: In order to stimulate our discussion on this question, I want
to set forth a plan for partitioning Germany into five states, which I
personally drew up two months ago.

Churchill: I should like to stress that the root of evil in Germany is
Prussia.

Roosevelt: I should like us to have a picture of the whole before we speak
of the separate components. In my opinion, Prussia must be weakened as far
as possible, and reduced in size. Prussia should constitute the first
independent part of Germany. The second part of Germany should include
Hannover and the north-western regions of Germany. The third part --
Saxony and the Leipzig area. The fourth part -- Hessen Province,
Darmstadt, Kassel and the areas to the south of the Rhine, and also the
old towns of Westphalia. The fifth part -- Bavaria, Baden, Württemberg.
Each of these five parts would be an independent state. In addition, the
regions of the Kiel Canal and Hamburg should be separated from Germany.
These regions would be administered by the United Nations, or the four
Powers. The Ruhr and the Saar must be placed either under the control of
the United Nations or under the trusteeship of the whole of Europe. That
is my proposal. I must add that it is merely exploratory.

Churchill: You have said a mouthful. I think there are two questions: one
-- destructive, the other -- constructive. I have two ideas: the first is
to isolate Prussia from the rest of Germany; the second is to separate
Germany's southern provinces -- Bavaria, Baden, Württemberg, the
Palatinate, from the Saar to Saxony inclusive. I would keep Prussia in
strict condition. I think it would be easy to sever the southern provinces
from Prussia and include them in a Danubian federation. The people who
live in the Danube basin are not the cause of war. At any rate, I would
give the Prussians harsher treatment than the other Germans. The southern
Germans will not start a new war.

Stalin: I do not like the plan for new associations of states. If it is
decided to partition Germany no new associations need be set up. Whether
it is five or six states, and two regions into which Roosevelt proposes to
divide Germany, this plan of Roosevelt's to weaken Germany can be
examined. Like us, Churchill will soon have to deal with great masses of
Germans. Churchill will then see that it is not only the Prussians who are
fighting in the German Army but also Germans from the other provinces of
Germany. Only the Austrians, when surrendering, shout "I'm Austrian", and
our soldiers accept them. As for the Germans from Germany's other
provinces they fight with equal doggedness. Regardless of how we approach
the partitioning of Germany there is no need to set up some new
association of Danubian states lacking vitality. Hungary and Austria must
exist separately. Austria existed as a separate state until it was seized.

Roosevelt: I agree with Marshal Stalin, in particular, that there is no
difference between Germans from the various German provinces. Fifty years
ago there was a difference but now all German soldiers are alike. It is
true that this does not apply to the Prussian officers.

Churchill: I should not like to be understood as not favouring the
partition of Germany. But I wanted to say that if Germany is broken up
into several parts without these parts being combined then, as Marshal
Stalin said, the time will come when the Germans will unite.

Stalin: There are no steps that could exclude the possibility of Germany's
unification.

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/johnson/teheran.htm
 
Of course Britain's military and conference table weight is the least of the big three.

This could even be a result of an "own goal" where Alanbrooke and Churchill succeed in maximally delaying D-Day and their reward is having the Soviets reach the Danish and Dutch borders first.

Was Alanbrooke against DDay?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
What would be the longterm effects of a divided North and South Germany?
For one, France would be much more paranoid about its security since it would now presumably share a border with a Soviet puppet state. In turn, this might result in France remaining within NATO's military command structure.
 
For one, France would be much more paranoid about its security since it would now presumably share a border with a Soviet puppet state. In turn, this might result in France remaining within NATO's military command structure.

Either that or going FAR more DeGaullist and playing power broker.
 

Perkeo

Banned
There were a number of different maps proposed for a postwar division of Germany at Yalta. This is the one proposed by Churchill - which included not only Austria, but Hungary.

View attachment 346511

Now, it's doubtful that Austria would've been included in any postwar German state, and Hungary would have been absolutely out of the question, but something like this is probably your best bet.
Hungary included - of course not, but Austria is easy: Just don’t call it „South Germany“ but „Austria-Bavaria“.
 
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