Well, I personally think that by the 1960s, the USA will have a significant lead in Research and Development, seeing that Germany's education system is going to be stunted significantly by Nazi ideological policies. I can see the Luftwaffe still fielding Me262s by the 1960s. However, I think the Germans will have an edge in terms of small arms technology, seeing as they will be geared towards counterinsurgency. (PROTIP: atrocities only serve to exacerbate rebellion, not suppress it.)
Post-war German armaments
- Thread starter Nietzsche
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I think the longer the Nazis get away from the war the more their society shifts from thugs with party backing to university-educated bureaucrats running the show. Their technology levels were 10-15 years ahead of the West in some areas at the start of the war and in some fields these might eventually recover. I would expect a very serious space race where the Americans are playing catch-up with Germany launching the first rocket in the late 40s and a man on the moon could be feasible by 1959. Mars follows 5 years later and we get commercial space travel by the late 70s. Maybe even a tour of the Jovian moons and mining in the asteroid belt by century's end. On the other tech fronts I see Germany maintaining her submarine lead but building a few super-carriers and outrageously ineffective politically-motivated battleships, if only to say she has a surface fleet. They will have to develop a marine corps of some kind given the tropical environment and islands noted on your map. Look for G3 rifles or close with the 7.92 Kurz round as a primary. They will also probably develop a knock-off of the American jeep, easy to build/maintain and available in mass quantity. Remember that the Russians have the SVT-40 which is not a bad rifle in and of itself and they will be itching for a fight to reclaim lost territory or stick it to Berlin any way possible. Standardizing the German army equipment would be nice but there will be too many bureaucrats and interests to make that easy. Their air forces will continue to develop jet technology and possibly flying wing technology as well, though exactly how far/fast they get is up for debate. Assuming they keep most of Europe into the 21st century I would surmise average tech levels for civilians at least a decade ahead of OTL with an Internet loaded with Nazi propaganda sites for the West and fiercely restricted in their own territories. Computers become the new radios for gathering information from the free world.
Deleted member 1487
It depends; the Soviets were winning in Afghanistan targeting children and wiping out whole villages until the US stepped in and started supplying modern equipment to counter Soviet technology advantages. Will the Africans have an ideology to sustain them through the atrocities like the Afghans had with Wahhabist Islam?
Agreed. It depends on how much the Nazis push scientific education; if they take a Soviet style version of education, forcing students with certain aptitudes down certain paths, the Nazis could well have a pretty decent scientific community, albeit one isolated from the rest of the world and stunted by ridiculously stringent security restrictions preventing cross talk among engineers and basic science teams. If anything I think the bureaucratic nightmare that was the Hitler system would be more harmful than education issues (math is math, physics is physics). Its going to be more harmful to be cut off from the rest of the world's scientific community too, as the cross pollination internationally among scientists increases the pace of innovation, while being cut off from that community retards it.
I'm much more dubious about this. The Germans already had better jets on the drawing board in 1945 (nevermind the napkinwaffe), some of which turned into the later MIG15 (or at least helped contribute to that final design), so the Luftwaffe would likely field something at least as good as the Soviets by the 1960's but would start to have problems as electronics become more critical in aviation.
Depends. The Germans were starting to develop a semi-decent anti-partisan doctrine by 1945, but the war was lost well before that point. If the Germans are focused on fighting guerilla wars all over the place they will likely have very decent small arms and probably would end up keeping propellor aircraft for insurgency operations to help them, much like the USAF is now trying to acquire turboprop LAAR aircraft for Afghanistan. In general they are going to neglect their warfighting abilities and focus on small unit and support weapons and training, just like the Israelis did in the 1980-2006, when they found they were more focused on internal security and anti-insurgency ops. My point is that the Germans, if they are just fighting endless insurgencies, will have excellent anti-insurgency equipment that may not translate well into warfighting equipment. So the 'edge' in small arms may not hold up as well in a major modern war with troops with body armor equal firepower. Maybe.
This assumes that the Nazi system even could survive Hitler; frankly the scenario laid out in the OP is really far fetched IMHO. Its very unlikely to downright impossible for the Germans to get back any African colonies. Likely they will end up holding down eastern Europe and fighting a guerilla war with the Soviets endlessly.
The Allies, specifically the US, but also the British, were pulling way ahead of the Germans during the war in critical things like electronics. Its very unlikely they will ever totally catch up, especially with the US and British trading ideas, which the Germans won't be able to, nor will their scientific system be able to produce innovations nearly as quickly if something like the Hitler system of competing bureaucracies remain, because they couldn't 'cross talk' when working on secret projects with teams working on similar items/basic research. Germany will be too poor to produce a fleet with having to maintain a large air force and standing army to hold down its major territory gains. Hitler was always more focused on settling the East than worrying about African colonies. In fact IIRC he even turned down offers to take back some old Imperial colonies at one point.
Still, I'm very curious to see what the Germans do with their computers, as Konrad Zuse had the first Turing complete unit working by himself before all of the US or British teams working on theirs.
Edit:
Interesting tidbit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor
The Germans could have had a working transistor nearly at the same time as the US.
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I think this site may help the dicussion here: http://www.luft46.com/ 
Shows lots of post war designs you may find useful, though I think its restricted to aircraft.
As the site says:
Personally I like to hope this Germany will eventually collapse and the awesome tech will help push the world ahead by a few decades. Hey, if the British Empire survives in this timeline, we might still get a British Space Empire after all
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Shows lots of post war designs you may find useful, though I think its restricted to aircraft.
As the site says:
Personally I like to hope this Germany will eventually collapse and the awesome tech will help push the world ahead by a few decades. Hey, if the British Empire survives in this timeline, we might still get a British Space Empire after all
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1][/SIZE][/FONT]
Deleted member 1487
They had a 'jeep', the Kubelwagen during the war, called the German Jeep.
As to the 7.92 kurz...no. It was a stop gap round. Prewar the Germans were working on an intermediate cartridge, the 6.5mm or 6.8mm round. Given the need to carry more ammunition on long patrols and for automatic suppressive fire, there is a need for a lighter round, not a heavy, underpowered round. But the 5.56 is obviously too light by German prewar thinking. I doubt they would go down the same line as the US, which ended up adopting a rifle, the M16, that was designed to be an Air Force base defense weapon, not a main battle rifle.
IMHO expect a G3 and eventually a G36 style rifle with an intermediate round that is controllable in automatic mode, but still has manstopping capabilities out to medium ranges. The Kurz round had many drawbacks, which the Germans recognized and were planning to phase out after the war.
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There is a lot of 7.92 Kurz already available, so I think it would be used first as a stopgap if not in the longer run. Maybe a new round is developed, a 7x50 mm "Ural" might be the eventual round decided on but until there is time for breathing room and trials I think they would go with what they had.
As for the Kubelwagen it could be streamlined and simplified but wasn't it still more complex and trickier to fix than its American equivalent? Remember that German war vehicles were like their car industry - exquisite and often top notch individually but difficult to fix without an expert technician. American equivalents could be fixed by just about anyone as they were simplistic (it also did not hurt that three times as many Americans had cars before the war as Germans).
Deleted member 1487
I think by the 1950's the Germans would shift focus on their 7.92 kurz to a lighter, intermediate round.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Kübelwagen
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/04/vw-kubelwagen-and-schwimmwagen-germanys-ww2-jeeps/
Basically on further research, the Jeep was a very light truck, while the Kubelwagen was a dune buggy. Each had their advantages and disadvantages. For operations in the jungle, desert, or snow the Kubelwagen could operate with far fewer problems, as did not have a radiator and didn't overheat or freeze. The Jeep was better off road, but was heavier and designed to haul things, something the Kubelwagen was not designed to do. The Kubelwagen wasn't harder to produce or maintain; in fact in many ways the wagen was easier to maintain because of its construction. But they were meant for different roles, so they are not things that can really be compared.
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That's outrageous, unless they're trainers or cheap COIN aircraft. Scratch COIN - too many maintenance and logistics issues for that.
Only if you're leaving some of them alive.
The Germans will have a significant edge in ballistic missiles, right? Also, I'm curious how much farther they pursue the line of rocket-propelled fighters.
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Deleted member 1487
Jets are terrible for COIN, as evidenced by the US experience in Afghanistan. As trainers they are just as bad, even today we use prop aircraft as trainers. So the Me 262 is out period, especially as it was as early jet and better designs were already in the pipeline. The frame wasn't bad and in fact better than anything the Allies had in planning in 1945, but had shit engines. That is going to be a major issue post war.
Anyway, I think for COIN the FW 190 is perfect, especially if it is given better engines and is modernized periodically. Frankly I think it would still be useful today if its airframe is slightly tweeked and engine updated, though a two seater is best with good visibility. Maybe the Me 410 would be a better candidate...
Yes. Rocket fighters are not a viable option, which is obvious in this scenario where the Germans are victorious in 1943-1944 before things get really desperate and were trying anything and everything regardless of the dangers involved.
As a separate issue the Ju 252 would replace the Ju 52 and probably see action as a Gunship with a similar function to the AC130 Spectre with recoilless artillery, machine guns, and 20mm cannons mounted sideline for ground support.
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I'm not so sure about this. The moon MAYBE, it's feasible and the Nazi's were arrogant enough pour funding into this. But travel to Mars only a year later? With 1950-60's tech? Not happening, even if the Germans have all the rocket sceintists, they are limted by lack of computers, tracking, communication etc which the allies would be ahead of them in. The German rocket scientists were brilliant, but not gods. It takes aprox four years to travel the distance from Earth to Mars and four years back. Currently we face issues of creating a craft that would survive such a long voyage while accomadating a team for that long. The Nazis simply don't have the tech for this and winning the war isn't going to help them. I imagine the Nazi Space Program would also eventually face funding issues. They are in a state of Cold War and much funding will be put into defence and unless the Space Program can present the government with space based laser cannons, it's not going to get near enough funding to go beyond the moon. Like in the Cold War, getting men into space and to the moon will be a prestige thing rather than a tactical one. (Not that getting to the moon wasn't an achievement, but in the grand scheme of things it did little except for boost Western Morale a bit) .I imagine we would see satelites earlier however.
What about nuclear technology? What are we looking at?
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Wiking: Interesting source for the Kubelwagen, thanks!
Alex1guy:
Not one year between the Moon and Mars, but *maybe five* and I was thinking just to get there. Germany is only limited by a lack of computers at the outset, given Zuse and existing computers in the West what stops them from catching up somewhat just as the Allies will catch up in rocket tech? Yes, it will be a prestige program, but the lack of a decade in retrofitting and redevelopment means that the first satellites will be earlier and that men into space will also be earlier. I think we'd also see the USA and Germany push it farther than OTL, maybe "2001" is a documentary in this timeline and Pan Am actually builds their shuttle?
Besides we assume they somehow won the war with everything on that map, which is borderline ASB in and of itself IMO
Alex1guy:
Not one year between the Moon and Mars, but *maybe five* and I was thinking just to get there. Germany is only limited by a lack of computers at the outset, given Zuse and existing computers in the West what stops them from catching up somewhat just as the Allies will catch up in rocket tech? Yes, it will be a prestige program, but the lack of a decade in retrofitting and redevelopment means that the first satellites will be earlier and that men into space will also be earlier. I think we'd also see the USA and Germany push it farther than OTL, maybe "2001" is a documentary in this timeline and Pan Am actually builds their shuttle?
Besides we assume they somehow won the war with everything on that map, which is borderline ASB in and of itself IMO
Snake Featherston
Banned
German arms stagnate in their WWII fashion and don't develop much further from there once the consequences of the deliberate Nazi destruction of the German scientific community and the economic sinkhole they've made for themselves in the former USSR start kicking in. Germany will be a North Korea on a vast scale: one of the largest armies in the world, but it's a hollow army that's pure pretense.
Snake Featherston
Banned
Considering that Germans now has Mittelafrika and the East Indies, they need more rugged small arms. The Gemans will likely develop SMGs based on the PPSh-41. As for Assault Rifles, the evolutions of the Sturmgewehr will likely be (more) similar to the AK-47/74, due to the need for reliability in harsher environments. an M14 analogue may be developed as the new semi-automatic battle rifle, but it's more likely that the STG-47 (thats what I'll call it
With artillery, rockets will likely become more important than tube artillery, and whatever the Germans make will likely be a Nebelwerfer-Katyusha hybrid.
As far as the Navy goes, the Germans won't develop submarines as much as they did, aside from SSNs. This is because they are going to focus on force projection, which is the job of large surface fleets. Due to Nazi egomania, they'll likely build some useless battleships, but they'll also build some aircraft carriers, which actually have value.
In the air, the Germans will develop further their jets. I don't know whether the Germans focused on speed, maneuverability or firepower, so aviation experts could answer better than me on this. The Germans did have plans for the 'Amerikabomber' which was an inter-continental strategic bomber. If they planned to fight the US, or were in a Cold War with the US, they would also need advanced Naval Bombers.
For WMDs, I imagine the Germans would develop biological and chemical weapons, largely for clearing troublesome populations in the new colonies. One very interesting thing about the Nazis is that, despite the fact that many of the projects were funding sinkholes, they were very imaginative. There will definitely be Nazi ICBMs, and a Trans-Atlantic Cold War will focus on ICBMs, rather than tactical nukes or SRBMs.
The Germans will probably give up their mega-tank designs, but will continue experimenting with flying saucers, and possibly even Tesla-style energy coil weapons.
Nah, the Germans will simply use the Nazi means of responding to any upheaval: kill anything human and not wearing a Nazi uniform in the vincinity. Nazi weaponry is going to stagnate and stagnate good and well in a mid-50s fashion in the most optimistic of cases. For one thing OTL the Nazis never modernized their army entirely, and ITTL they will never do so because "Well, it got us Europe" will be the excuse. A major problem any victorious Germany will have is the inevitable Waffen-SS/Wehrmacht intrigue running two separate Military-Industrial Complexes.
The "Nazis cannot into science" camp....
given how they handled the German education system, I wouldn't say that the Nazis were going to be front runners in terms of science.
Snake Featherston
Banned
The "Nazis cannot into science" camp....
Well, to be crude the Nazis didn't have any ideological basis whatsoever to handle rationalism. By comparison the USSR had more of one based on the Marxist focus on economics, which by itself abrogates to itself a purely rationalist viewpoint (albeit one more approaching Vulcan-logic than human-logic). Fascism doesn't have a basis for any kind of scientific development, when the WWII generation starts leaving power, Germany will begin a rapid implosion and be a hollow shell akin to the 1970s USSR.
Deleted member 1487
You're assuming though that the Nazis will retain the Hitler style of governance. It is very likely the Nazis either implode with Hitler's death or change radically once he dies in the ensuing power struggle. Someone is going to take over and change the rickety mess, either the military once Hitler is gone and the Nazis are weakened, or the most ruthless of the Nazis, who know intimately how messed up the system is. Now its not going to be a competitive system when it all hashes out though, but not so bad as to collapse or get locked into the 1950's.
I'm curious to see what the large birthing and settlement programs produce for German society though, especially once the Nazi system collapses.
Snake Featherston
Banned
If they don't their whole system disintegrates under its complete absence of anything even remotely resembling a coherent system of governance. If they do then they just continue to radicalize to the point they collapse regardless. Nothing remotely guarantees a Nazi Brezhnev, and one can't engage in mass resurrection of all those Russians, Belarusians, Balts, Ukrainians, Poles, Jews, and so on who now occupy the mass graves that would dot Europe. Nazi Germany set itself up to fail and failure is its sole and only option. The USSR tried to establish a real state out of a totalitarian system, did so repeatedly. It's how we got the CIS. The Nazis would not even see the effort had to be made.