Post-war development of Nazi Germany

  • Thread starter Captain Stalker
  • Start date

Captain Stalker

I have an idea buzzing through my head that I’d like some help fleshing out.

The POD is 1940, during the American Presidential Election. Wendell Willkie beats FDR, leaving America isolationist and unwilling to help either Britain or the USSR in any significant way, let alone put pressure on the Japanese. Accordingly, Britain’s ability to wage war is seriously hampered and Hitler is able to attack Russia earlier than OTL. The US does not provide any support – and the Japanese, who aren’t hit with any embargos in this timeline, launch an invasion of the Russian Far East as the German armies close in on Moscow. The Japanese get roughly handled, but this doesn't save Moscow – or Stalin’s government. By 1942, the Germans have occupied most of European Russia and have reached down through Stalingrad to Baku and Iran. This sends off political shockwaves running through what remains of the British Empire. Both Iraq and Iran go over to the Nazis – along with Egypt when Italian forces threaten it from the west.

The British, bankrupt, concede defeat by 1943. They keep India (but maybe not for long), Australia and Canada. The Japanese keep on trying to defeat the Chinese, drawing them into a quagmire. The US’s next government finally realises that there is a problem – and so we get a Cold War, of sorts, between Nazi Germany and the USA.

My question is this; how does Germany evolve in the wake of victory? What happens to the German Government when Hitler dies? (He wasn't supposed to live much longer than 1945 in any case.) What happens in the east? Forced resettlement, enslavement of Slavs and Jews – forced labour used to build railways and motorways into the Russian interior?

What do you think?

CS
 
Willkie was an Internationalist, not an Isolationist, and no one was going to beat Roosevelt in 1940 barring a major scandal that did not at that time exist.

You would need FDR not to run for a Second Term, and for the Republicans to not be significantly influenced by the Media, thus allowing Thomas Dewey to capture the nomination; he would later turn into an Internationalist, but at the time was an Isolationist in the Bob Taft mold.
 
As well, Japan isn't going to attack Russia, and Britain isn't just going to whimper and surrender, Operation Vegetarian was considered for a reason. Oh, and the Germans can't occupy Russia, it's just too big that Even without Lend-Lease they aren't going to be able to do it. What will happen is that without Lend-Lease the Russians have to produce their own trucks and things, which will cost them in tanks and aircraft, so that they can't do those sweeping advances they did in '43-'45. Nazi Germany can survive, but there is no way in hell it's going to prosper.
 
Yeah, people here are not very nice about "Nazi's win" scenario's.

Gonna be much discussing about the how and why of the Nazi victory then the actually post-war scenario.

Post-war scenario's involving Nazi victory are going to horrendous anyway. Genocide, nuclear war, nuclear space fights etc.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Read Calbear Anglo-American time line, but assume there is peace. Let Hitler finish his plans. Calbear does a good bit a detail, just make the number dead larger.
 
I have an idea buzzing through my head that I’d like some help fleshing out.

The POD is 1940, during the American Presidential Election. Wendell Willkie beats FDR, leaving America isolationist and unwilling to help either Britain or the USSR in any significant way, let alone put pressure on the Japanese. Accordingly, Britain’s ability to wage war is seriously hampered and Hitler is able to attack Russia earlier than OTL. The US does not provide any support – and the Japanese, who aren’t hit with any embargos in this timeline, launch an invasion of the Russian Far East as the German armies close in on Moscow. The Japanese get roughly handled, but this doesn't save Moscow – or Stalin’s government. By 1942, the Germans have occupied most of European Russia and have reached down through Stalingrad to Baku and Iran. This sends off political shockwaves running through what remains of the British Empire. Both Iraq and Iran go over to the Nazis – along with Egypt when Italian forces threaten it from the west.

The British, bankrupt, concede defeat by 1943. They keep India (but maybe not for long), Australia and Canada. The Japanese keep on trying to defeat the Chinese, drawing them into a quagmire. The US’s next government finally realises that there is a problem – and so we get a Cold War, of sorts, between Nazi Germany and the USA.

My question is this; how does Germany evolve in the wake of victory? What happens to the German Government when Hitler dies? (He wasn't supposed to live much longer than 1945 in any case.) What happens in the east? Forced resettlement, enslavement of Slavs and Jews – forced labour used to build railways and motorways into the Russian interior?

What do you think?

CS

Japan would have run head first against over half a million Soviet reserves in the Far East which were placed there IOTL as a just in case. The Soviet Winter Counteroffensive would have been unafected and by 1942 the Soviets would be moving into Manchuria, crippling Japan's industry and forcing its complete surrender. Likewise, an isolationist US is simply not possible in the 1940s. It'd be political suicide for any president, as by late 1941 around 40-50% of people supported lend lease to the SOVIET UNION, and an even greater percentage supported it to Britain. These numbers were steadily on the rise.
 

Sternberg

Banned
I'm not sure how Wendell Willkie beating FDR in the 1940 US presidential election would make a big enough difference to allow for a Nazi victory, but with a POD as late as 1939, between the annexation of Memel Territory in March and the declaration of war on Poland in September, that could make things better for the Nazis, and worse for the world overall.

I wouldn't really expect the Nazis to be able to win the war until somewhere between 1947 and 1953, but once they do, Europe will be devastated, that's for sure. As a result of damage dealt on Germany by the Soviet Union and Britain, it would take some time for Germany to rebuild, so don't expect Welthauptstadt Germania or the rest of Hitler's pet projects to be completed until the early 1960s at best. Also, if the United States is still around, expect the Cold War to end in global thermonuclear conflict.

Just my two cents on this.
 
How does any of this lead the Germans to win the kind of victory in Operation Barbarossa that they have no power to do so? They can't destroy the Soviet army in the first two weeks and joy-ride to the A-A Line as their plan requires, they'll still flounder after that in a fashion that does much to give the USSR time to provide its own salvation, but after that, they still can't pull off victory in 1942 as they'll lose their best logistics in 1941. This factor was not dependent on the USA. Unless you find a way for Germany to cube the circle and succeed in three months in Barbarossa (which ideology, hubris, and arrogance means they really can't do, and if they fail then they can stalemate the war assuming a perpetually stupid USSR that never even *tries* to learn) then the most Germany does is stalemate.
 
I'm not sure how Wendell Willkie beating FDR in the 1940 US presidential election would make a big enough difference to allow for a Nazi victory, but with a POD as late as 1939, between the annexation of Memel Territory in March and the declaration of war on Poland in September, that could make things better for the Nazis, and worse for the world overall.

I wouldn't really expect the Nazis to be able to win the war until somewhere between 1947 and 1953, but once they do, Europe will be devastated, that's for sure. As a result of damage dealt on Germany by the Soviet Union and Britain, it would take some time for Germany to rebuild, so don't expect Welthauptstadt Germania or the rest of Hitler's pet projects to be completed until the early 1960s at best. Also, if the United States is still around, expect the Cold War to end in global thermonuclear conflict.

Just my two cents on this.

Germany needs to find a way to win Barbarossa to win the war. It can't do this, because its very concept was flawed and it never had the capability to look at and see the flaws that were there (namely because having beaten France in six weeks and looking at Finland, Nazi hubris led them to conclude that two weeks would be all that the war with the USSr lasted, then the rest of the three months were to be a joyride of slaughter and destruction). As in the Nazis completely missing the massing of Soviet reserve armies, and in the realization that they would not, in fact, crush the entire USSR on the borders as their plan required, they improvised afterward, won some victories, but never figured out how capturing Kiev, Smolensk, besieging Leningrad, and intending to get to Moscow was going to turn into winning the war.

Germany also can't do *worse* in 1940 as it only takes a few degrees on the Meuse to wreck the Germans for the war in their big drive West. The Nazis set themselves up to fail, and unless there's a means short of a Guns of the South thing that could convince Hitler to do this, then they might in the circumstances of a perpetually stupid USSR stalemate the war, but they've not a snowball's chance in Hell to win it.
 
Top