Post-revolution territorial conflicts in a balkanized North America

I like this map a lot. Let me understand it:

Red: British posessions
Pink: British protectorates
Purple: United States
Light purple: US territories, including western New York
Orange: Virginia
Light orange: Virginia territories
Blue: French
Light blue: French protectorates in OTL Georgia?

And what is the area that intrigues me the most, the brown area centered on OTL Wisconsin and Illinois?



Let's see... I didn't envisage this as much later than 1810 -15.

Mostly because I wasn't sure how the Trans - Mississippi would actually look.

Lets see first...the light purple yes... some NE claims sold off to the US, so that they will get something for their state coffers...but I saw the claims to the far NW as a step too far. Neither the rump USA, NY or NE can project into the area with effect, especially if they are at loggerheasds with each other. Add to that Virginia's claim and their head start at getting boots on the ground and the probable opposition of the British and of course the natural hostility of the Native coalition, thus I didn't see Philadelphia as being interested in the ephemeral more distant claims of either of their Northern neighbours. the first two though are immediately adjacent and their is the prospect at least that the NE states will be able to actually aid in securing Western NY...For the record I assumed that the smaller NY would be annexed directly by NE, or their would be regime change that would seek greater co-operation and eventual union later...Hence you see even rump NY subdivided. As to the Western reserve
thats more in the end through diplomatic endeavours and recognition as part of one of the Anglo- Virginian treaties.

Pink + Brown are actually the envisioned protectorate, but divided into two distinct zones. The pink is an area of more direct British Activity and governance. The control of these assures British contol of the Upper lakes and the routes to the further NW of Western Rupertsland. the brown much looser control and more a wilderness buffer for the natives. A few Br. Garrisons...and a number of trading posts. Any White European settlement would be among the native villages or small scale around those trading posts and forts only.. The majority of the ter. though would be dominated by the native villages of the various tribes. Of the pink only the lower part would be of immediate interest, and I call it the District of Huron ( The upper being Chippewa). The south border dividing those two parts being
from the point on the west shore of Lake Erie at 42 degrees N following a surveyors line directly to the southern most headwaters of the Grand River and then down its south shore to is exit in Lake Michigan.

The Borbon Blue is actually envisioned as Spain not France. the light blue... a loss by SC/Ga to Spain in the aftermath of tryng to force the issue of the Florida border (back to the 31st at least instead of the Spanish insistence on the old British border) during the late 1790's while Virginia is more directly preoccupied to the North and while Spain is technically not allied to the Br. and not at war with France in the aftermath of the First coalition. Spain is disadvantaged at first and the colonials have the advantage of proximity..But the Spanish Empire still has considerable muscle to bring to bear. The colonials really don't have a chance. I'd actually considered the terr. west of teh Tombigee as well, but I that might push it. they will play the natives off against the Settlers in the east. that bordr being an extension eastward of the WEst Florida border to the Eastern Continental divide beyond the Flint and then either directly to the head of the St. Mary's or along the divide to same. This makes sense from the point of view of enlarging and reinforcing the historical position of Spain in Florida, its going to have a number of Anglo settlers though. Where as the West would only be the Choctaws and Chickasaws. Now I am thinking that that might actually be the better course.

Spanish entry into the second coalition is then either prevented or at least delayed significantly. No immediate retrocession of Louisiana, or perhaps its just later...depends on events.

NC is of course yellow to show its close association with Virginia and I envisioned an eventual ascension to the same coalition once Virginia transcends to some kind of confederal commonwealth

Beyond the Mississippi, even if taken by Britain from France, following a retrocession, Spain if allied with France, or a second alliance of both France and Virginia. I could see it returned in most cases back to Spain if Spain eventually ends the Great French War as a anti-French Ally. As some kind of joint protectorate within or simply with the Spanish Empire. It may or may not devolve to Mexico after 1820..depends on circumstance. If Ferdinand was to actually agree to the personal Union that was originally proposed say....b/n the Mexican and Spanish Empires. Louisiana might be carved off for the Spanish and/or British in the old expanses of the French domain as a Northern version of Argentina. New Orleans part of the terr, but actually a freeport by treaty ( At least until the advent of the railroads anyway).
 
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Let's see... I didn't envisage this as much later than 1810 -15.

Mostly because I wasn't sure how the Trans - Mississippi would actually look.

Lets see first...the light purple yes... some NE claims sold off to the US, so that they will get something for their state coffers...but I saw the claims to the far NW as a step too far. Neither the rump USA, NY or NE can project into the area with effect, especially if they are at loggerheasds with each other. Add to that Virginia's claim and their head start at getting boots on the ground and the probable opposition of the British and of course the natural hostility of the Native coalition, thus I didn't see Philadelphia as being interested in the ephemeral more distant claims of either of their Northern neighbours.

Makes sense. Meanwhile, Britain and Virginia contest most of the Northwest, while the three northeastern polities remain neutral.

the first two though are immediately adjacent and their is the prospect at least that the NE states will be able to actually aid in securing Western NY...For the record I assumed that the smaller NY would be annexed directly by NE, or their would be regime change that would seek greater co-operation and eventual union later...Hence you see even rump NY subdivided.

Wouldn't this mean war? New York doesn't want to lose its entire Western territory, followed by its independence.

As to the Western reserve
thats more in the end through diplomatic endeavours and recognition as part of one of the Anglo- Virginian treaties.

I think I'll borrow those borders to make the State of Erie.

Pink + Brown are actually the envisioned protectorate, but divided into two distinct zones. The pink is an area of more direct British Activity and governance. The control of these assures British contol of the Upper lakes and the routes to the further NW of Western Rupertsland. the brown much looser control and more a wilderness buffer for the natives. A few Br. Garrisons...and a number of trading posts. Any White European settlement would be among the native villages or small scale around those trading posts and forts only.. The majority of the ter. though would be dominated by the native villages of the various tribes. Of the pink only the lower part would be of immediate interest, and I call it the District of Huron ( The upper being Chippewa). The south border dividing those two parts being
from the point on the west shore of Lake Erie at 42 degrees N following a surveyors line directly to the southern most headwaters of the Grand River and then down its south shore to is exit in Lake Michigan.[/QUOTE]

So if I am understanding you, Chippewa is northern Michigan, the Upper Peninsula, and northern Minnesota, and it will follow a path similar to OTL Canada. Huron is OTL southern Michigan and Minnesota, northern Illinois, and Wisconsin, and it will remain a Native reserve. Do you foresee this arrangement continuing throughout the century? Can the British keep American settlers out?

The Borbon Blue is actually envisioned as Spain not France. the light blue... a loss by SC/Ga to Spain in the aftermath of tryng to force the issue of the Florida border (back to the 31st at least instead of the Spanish insistence on the old British border) during the late 1790's while Virginia is more directly preoccupied to the North and while Spain is technically not allied to the Br. and not at war with France in the aftermath of the First coalition. Spain is disadvantaged at first and the colonials have the advantage of proximity..But the Spanish Empire still has considerable muscle to bring to bear. The colonials really don't have a chance. I'd actually considered the terr. west of teh Tombigee as well, but I that might push it. they will play the natives off against the Settlers in the east. that bordr being an extension eastward of the WEst Florida border to the Eastern Continental divide beyond the Flint and then either directly to the head of the St. Mary's or along the divide to same. This makes sense from the point of view of enlarging and reinforcing the historical position of Spain in Florida, its going to have a number of Anglo settlers though. Where as the West would only be the Choctaws and Chickasaws. Now I am thinking that that might actually be the better course.

So Spain holds onto those territories (I had been assuming that they would be British) and perhaps sets up something like they did with the Pueblo peoples in New Mexico? Long-term we would see a syncretic culture develop in independent Florida made of Native and European elements that would not want to be part of Mexico after independence from Spain.

Spanish entry into the second coalition is then either prevented or at least delayed significantly. No immediate retrocession of Louisiana, or perhaps its just later...depends on events.

Why is this? Butterflies caused by the changes in the Americas?

NC is of course yellow to show its close association with Virginia and I envisioned an eventual ascension to the same coalition once Virginia transcends to some kind of confederal commonwealth

Makes sense. Commonwealth of Virginia with OTL Virginia divided into the provinces of East and West Virginia?

Beyond the Mississippi, even if taken by Britain from France, following a retrocession, Spain if allied with France, or a second alliance of both France and Virginia. I could see it returned in most cases back to Spain if Spain eventually ends the Great French War as a anti-French Ally. As some kind of joint protectorate within or simply with the Spanish Empire. It may or may not devolve to Mexico after 1820..depends on circumstance. If Ferdinand was to actually agree to the personal Union that was originally proposed say....b/n the Mexican and Spanish Empires. Louisiana might be carved off for the Spanish and/or British in the old expanses of the French domain as a Northern version of Argentina. New Orleans part of the terr, but actually a freeport by treaty ( At least until the advent of the railroads anyway).

So you are butterflying away the Louisiana Purchase. That could be interested. Virginian filibusters are going to try to take the territory anyway, though.

Free City of New Orleans under British guarantee has been my preference as well.
 
River and then down its south shore to is exit in Lake Michigan.

So if I am understanding you, Chippewa is northern Michigan, the Upper Peninsula, and northern Minnesota, and it will follow a path similar to OTL Canada. Huron is OTL southern Michigan and Minnesota, northern Illinois, and Wisconsin, and it will remain a Native reserve. Do you foresee this arrangement continuing throughout the century? Can the British keep American settlers out?
[/QUOTE]

The problem is, eventually Britain will have to keep both American and Canadian settlers out. Its premium land and its fairly close to the population centers of the principal American statelets, especially after a generation's worth of westward settlement. When the fur trade plays out, most of the economic benefits of maintaining a native American client state go with it.
 
So if I am understanding you, Chippewa is northern Michigan, the Upper Peninsula, and northern Minnesota, and it will follow a path similar to OTL Canada. Huron is OTL southern Michigan and Minnesota, northern Illinois, and Wisconsin, and it will remain a Native reserve. Do you foresee this arrangement continuing throughout the century? Can the British keep American settlers out?

The problem is, eventually Britain will have to keep both American and Canadian settlers out. Its premium land and its fairly close to the population centers of the principal American statelets, especially after a generation's worth of westward settlement. When the fur trade plays out, most of the economic benefits of maintaining a native American client state go with it.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I thought of it more as stop gap measure, designed to ease the transition. I see any settlement there to be small scale initially and either economically motivated...trade with the Native villages..military.. Garrisons to keep order, residing in the house of the "Great White Father"... or some what more of an altruistic or evangelical motivation...to bring education, new technology and religion to the natives. Hence why I thought it would be more of a fortress village or small trading post settlement. type scenario with only enough farmlands to provide the basic in terms of grains or vegetables. I am not sure how many of these tribes would take up a sedentary lifestyle... though I figured to have the Wyandots ( One of the Elders of the three fires) for instance eventually integrated into the greater hybrid white culture that swould develop in and around Detroit. I 've actually changed some of that map since to reflect the actual circumstances on the ground around that time. pulling back on the pink/pinkish areas.
 
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something like this

With the Adjustments.

DuSA.png
 
The problem is, eventually Britain will have to keep both American and Canadian settlers out. Its premium land and its fairly close to the population centers of the principal American statelets, especially after a generation's worth of westward settlement. When the fur trade plays out, most of the economic benefits of maintaining a native American client state go with it.

It's really a shame. But somewhat inevitable considering the population advantage of Europeans vs. Natives.

Actually, I thought of it more as stop gap measure, designed to ease the transition. I see any settlement there to be small scale initially and either economically motivated...trade with the Native villages..military.. Garrisons to keep order, residing in the house of the "Great White Father"... or some what more of an altruistic or evangelical motivation...to bring education, new technology and religion to the natives. Hence why I thought it would be more of a fortress village or small trading post settlement. type scenario with only enough farmlands to provide the basic in terms of grains or vegetables. I am not sure how many of these tribes would take up a sedentary lifestyle... though I figured to have the Wyandots ( One of the Elders of the three fires) for instance eventually integrated into the greater hybrid white culture that swould develop in and around Detroit. I 've actually changed some of that map since to reflect the actual circumstances on the ground around that time. pulling back on the pink/pinkish areas.

I like this idea a lot. Wyandot culture being subsumed under British culture is very problematic, but it's much preferable to being wiped out. A syncretic mixed culture would be a very interesting difference to explore when compared with OTL northern America.

It's interesting how alternate history fluctuates between "what might have happened," "what do we want to have happened" and "what do we not want to have happened." Making the Huron District (Michigan) become the home of a more syncretic society is a way to balance these things in a very interesting way. In terms of sheer numbers, these places will be Euro-American, but there is an influence of certain Native groups that comes through as well. I suppose that the OTL analogue is First Nations in Canada, but I think that certain changes will make the *First Nations element more powerful relative to the *Canada element. Most importantly perhaps is the importance of Natives to act as a buffer between *Canadian and *American settlers, but I am also seeing a polity with territory similar to OTL Canada which is more of a confederation between independent states, one of which could be Huron.

With the Adjustments.

This is perhaps my favorite take on this idea so far. At least, it's the closest to my own concept of it. The biggest difference in my own version of events is that New York stays independent, but of course this initial concept has a lot of things that can be done with it.

I'll like the map if the name is changed to Charleston League. :p

You and your Charleston League :p

I'm going to be revisiting this topic in future threads. I've also been reading a wonderful book, American Colonies by Alan Taylor, which is giving me a better understanding of the background to all this (though it cuts off just before the PoD of TTL). I think there are a lot of possibilities here which have not yet been explored. Possible PoDs, effects on the Revolutionary/Napoleonic Wars (I have been assuming few, but there could be butterflies), effects on the rest of the Americas, the slavery question, different migration patterns (both European immigrants and different Native resettlements) and what a twentieth century without a United States might look like.
 
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