Post-Nuclear war UK

Thande

Donor
Bear in mind that Ireland as a whole will benefit from the fact that the prevailing winds blow the fallout eastwards, which is one reason why the Soviets were always more hesitant about using nukes than you'd expect--even if they (somehow) won decisively in Germany with nukes and stopped the Americans from hitting them at all, they'd still be swamped with the fallout from Germany.
 
Is there a specific date wen The Nuclear War happens ?
so i can look for UK weather maps. and so make a Fallout map


Continuity of government during Cold War in UK
The primary COG headquarters is at the Ministry of Defence in Whitehall.
alternate was the national command center in a quarry complex near Corsham, codenamed Hawthorn
and a above-ground support facility of RAF Rudloe Manor.
with Service command centers locate in Northwood for the Royal Navy Trident SSBN force, and RAF High Wycombe for the Royal Air Force.

next to that were a network of Bunkers for local administrative, Law&Order and Milltary called SRHQ
it form a "rag rug" of administrative regions who control there area
in case the government in Whitehall is kill during the War.

that after a nuclear war the country would have divided into regions, each headed by a Regional Commissioner with full powers to govern internally. He would control the region through his own staff and the former local authority structures suitably modified for war. As an interim stage by the 1970s we had Sub-Regional Commissioners who would oversee the survival phase after the attack in their part of the region. This phase would last for a few weeks or months after which control would be handed over to the Regional Commissioner who would continue to put the region back on its feet and prepare for the re-establishment of national government. The Sub-Regional Commissioners had their own hardened SRHQs.
From Steve Fox "Beyond War Plan UK: civil defence in the 1980s" see link below

but like all Bunkers during Cold War they have one deathly fault
Operation time of maxium of 4-6 weeks, then run out of fuel and Food...

usefull link
UK warnig system in 1980s
http://www.ringbell.co.uk/ukwmo/Page211.htm
Bunker in UK
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/
Beyond War Plan UK: civil defence in the 1980s, by Steve Fox
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/features/beyond/
Struggle for survival, Governing Britian after the Bomb, by Steven Fox
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/rsg/features/sfs/
civil-defence in UK during cold war
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/category/civil-defence
 
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I say the UK is doomed, at lest the South of England is all the Civil defense plans call on local mayors and such to act selflessly and risk death away from their families, also would they know what to do? doubtful, would the Military take orders from the mayor of where ever? unlikely, military men will run away to find whatever family they have left, or in small groups hold up some where with food and guns to ride it out or try and ready for a Russian attack, food riots would over whelm what little police or military a local government could hold together (themselves likely sick and starved) I'd be shocked if anything south of the Glasgow-Edinburgh line will look like anything but the stone age
 

Macragge1

Banned
I say the UK is doomed, at lest the South of England is all the Civil defense plans call on local mayors and such to act selflessly and risk death away from their families, also would they know what to do? doubtful, would the Military take orders from the mayor of where ever? unlikely, military men will run away to find whatever family they have left, or in small groups hold up some where with food and guns to ride it out or try and ready for a Russian attack, food riots would over whelm what little police or military a local government could hold together (themselves likely sick and starved) I'd be shocked if anything south of the Glasgow-Edinburgh line will look like anything but the stone age

Based on even the most pessimistic projections, the United Kingdom is not doomed. It will go through hell, it will force good men to do terrible things, but it will survive.

The civilian officials chosen to staff the Regional Control Groups in the lead up to, and following the attacks, would be bound under the Emergency Powers Act, which would be forced through during any transition-to-war period. This means, effectively, they could be forced into their post at gunpoint and their families interned should they refuse to report for their war duties.

I am not suggesting for a second that these Controllers would go to their posts thanks to a stoic Englishness and a stiff upper lip. They would do it because a bunker is the safest place to be when the sky starts falling; it is certainly a better place to be than an over-crowded internment camp or worse. Their families stand a far better chance of surviving with a member of family in control than they do with a member of family in a shallow grave.

The Army will take orders from the local authorities because they are orders given on behalf of the Crown; if they decide to be treasonous, they lose all the advantages that the security forces will enjoy after the attack - guaranteed meals, good discipline etcetera. They also become the targets of loyalist forces hell-bent on restoring order.

Once the food in people's cellars runs out, they are more or less at the mercy of the authorities - almost all the food will now be under the direct control of the armed forces; there is very little chance of more than one or two of these depots being over-run in the whole country; these places are the country's lifeline, and they will be defended by well equipped units (including armour) that will not hesitate to open fire. There is little chance of hunter-gathering given the damage done to the flora and fauna in the affected areas. At best, they will starve. At worst, they will eat something radioactive and starve painfully

There will be no, repeat, no fear of a Russian attack; even assuming we didn't know for sure the Russians weren't going to try to invade, let us look at it logically; The vast majority of WarPac ground forces will have been destroyed during the fighting that precedes the nuclear exchange; fighting that will almost certainly involve liberal use of tactical nuclear, chemical and biological weaponry. These will include all of the best divisions the Reds have to offer.

Even assuming the Russians had a viable land force, they would still have no means of getting it over here. The Soviet surface fleet was a sorry affair (even without depletion by conventional and nuclear warfare). Combine this with the fact that enough of the Royal Navy will have dispersed (especially her hunter-killer submarines) and that its prime objective is now to protect the British Isles, a slim chance turns to none.

Even supposing Red Stars did get ashore, the UK will still maintain a defensive advantage, including several regular regiments who didn't get to Europe before the exchange. If worst comes to worst, which it will not, there will be no qualms anymore about the use of tactical nuclear weaponry to destroy any emergent beachheads.

We knew that this was impossible at the time, and so it was never seriously planned for or discussed; such a possibility would not be feared after an attack.

The Glasgow-Edinburgh line is arbitrary; several targets north of this line, especially air and naval bases, but also places such as Inverness and Thurso, would be hit; indeed, the only places untouched would be those untouched by man anyway.

The Stone Age is a huge exaggeration. Nuclear weapons are simply huge bombs with bad side effects. They are not, however , supernatural omens of the end times. Even when the UK is hit, the plans exist for recovery and for maintaining control. It will be tough, but life will go on. Fuel shortages and the like will limit the use of modern technology, but aeroplanes will still fly, soldiers will still use rifles, people will still listen to radios. Less advanced technology, particularly Victorian-era manufacturing equipment which doesn't need petroleum or electricity, will experience a resurgence.

The people will still remember Soft Cell and Ted Heath and Fawlty Towers and walks in the park. They will try as best they can to recover; wearing pelts and using rocks as tools, or any such regression, is not conducive to this.

uhm might i interject with the thought that.. hiroshima and nagasaki bounced back so quickly was becuase the first several feet of radioactive topsoil was removed and dumped into the ocean. Dresden was not nuclear.. even Chernobyl while a decent example not the best example..

No topsoil was moved at either Hiroshima or Nagasaki. It would have been a huge, huge logistical effort at a time when, frankly, the US neither knew enough about the dangers of radiation to worry or cared enough about the Japanese to bother. Besides, Little Boy and Fat Man were airburst, which means there was not a huge amount of fallout.

Fires caused by an airburst will not lead to radioactive soot; these are conventional fires that are just giving off whatever they are burning.

Dresden, obviously, was not a nuclear attack. It IS, however, one of the key sources used when looking at the possible effects of atomic weaponry; the sheer magnitude of incendiary weapons and the firestorm that followed are the best equivalent we have to the use of a ground-burst on a real, live city and its real, live population; similarly, the rates of PTSD and the like were extrapolated from Dresden as well as the Japanese bombs in order to fulfil the scientific studies that later inspired films such as The War Game.

Might i also add that NOONE knows exactly what would have been the climatic outcome of a full on Nuclear Exchange in 1982-83.. lets just say that 80% of all the war heads launch and reach target. thats what? 20 -30 thousand warheads? accounting for almost every major city in the Norhtern Hemisphere and many in the southern.

Obviously no-one knows for sure - thank god we don't. We can, however, use scientific method in order to extrapolate what would happen, and minds immeasurably superior to mine have proven that, whilst bad, nuclear winter simply would not be as bad as men such as Carl Sagan (whose research formed the basis for the world of Threads) suggested .
 
Based on even the most pessimistic projections, the United Kingdom is not doomed. It will go through hell, it will force good men to do terrible things, but it will survive.

The civilian officials chosen to staff the Regional Control Groups in the lead up to, and following the attacks, would be bound under the Emergency Powers Act, which would be forced through during any transition-to-war period. This means, effectively, they could be forced into their post at gunpoint and their families interned should they refuse to report for their war duties.

I am not suggesting for a second that these Controllers would go to their posts thanks to a stoic Englishness and a stiff upper lip. They would do it because a bunker is the safest place to be when the sky starts falling; it is certainly a better place to be than an over-crowded internment camp or worse. Their families stand a far better chance of surviving with a member of family in control than they do with a member of family in a shallow grave.

The Army will take orders from the local authorities because they are orders given on behalf of the Crown; if they decide to be treasonous, they lose all the advantages that the security forces will enjoy after the attack - guaranteed meals, good discipline etcetera. They also become the targets of loyalist forces hell-bent on restoring order.

Once the food in people's cellars runs out, they are more or less at the mercy of the authorities - almost all the food will now be under the direct control of the armed forces; there is very little chance of more than one or two of these depots being over-run in the whole country; these places are the country's lifeline, and they will be defended by well equipped units (including armour) that will not hesitate to open fire. There is little chance of hunter-gathering given the damage done to the flora and fauna in the affected areas. At best, they will starve. At worst, they will eat something radioactive and starve painfully

There will be no, repeat, no fear of a Russian attack; even assuming we didn't know for sure the Russians weren't going to try to invade, let us look at it logically; The vast majority of WarPac ground forces will have been destroyed during the fighting that precedes the nuclear exchange; fighting that will almost certainly involve liberal use of tactical nuclear, chemical and biological weaponry. These will include all of the best divisions the Reds have to offer.

Even assuming the Russians had a viable land force, they would still have no means of getting it over here. The Soviet surface fleet was a sorry affair (even without depletion by conventional and nuclear warfare). Combine this with the fact that enough of the Royal Navy will have dispersed (especially her hunter-killer submarines) and that its prime objective is now to protect the British Isles, a slim chance turns to none.

Even supposing Red Stars did get ashore, the UK will still maintain a defensive advantage, including several regular regiments who didn't get to Europe before the exchange. If worst comes to worst, which it will not, there will be no qualms anymore about the use of tactical nuclear weaponry to destroy any emergent beachheads.

We knew that this was impossible at the time, and so it was never seriously planned for or discussed; such a possibility would not be feared after an attack.

The Glasgow-Edinburgh line is arbitrary; several targets north of this line, especially air and naval bases, but also places such as Inverness and Thurso, would be hit; indeed, the only places untouched would be those untouched by man anyway.

The Stone Age is a huge exaggeration. Nuclear weapons are simply huge bombs with bad side effects. They are not, however , supernatural omens of the end times. Even when the UK is hit, the plans exist for recovery and for maintaining control. It will be tough, but life will go on. Fuel shortages and the like will limit the use of modern technology, but aeroplanes will still fly, soldiers will still use rifles, people will still listen to radios. Less advanced technology, particularly Victorian-era manufacturing equipment which doesn't need petroleum or electricity, will experience a resurgence.

The people will still remember Soft Cell and Ted Heath and Fawlty Towers and walks in the park. They will try as best they can to recover; wearing pelts and using rocks as tools, or any such regression, is not conducive to this.



No topsoil was moved at either Hiroshima or Nagasaki. It would have been a huge, huge logistical effort at a time when, frankly, the US neither knew enough about the dangers of radiation to worry or cared enough about the Japanese to bother. Besides, Little Boy and Fat Man were airburst, which means there was not a huge amount of fallout.

Fires caused by an airburst will not lead to radioactive soot; these are conventional fires that are just giving off whatever they are burning.

Dresden, obviously, was not a nuclear attack. It IS, however, one of the key sources used when looking at the possible effects of atomic weaponry; the sheer magnitude of incendiary weapons and the firestorm that followed are the best equivalent we have to the use of a ground-burst on a real, live city and its real, live population; similarly, the rates of PTSD and the like were extrapolated from Dresden as well as the Japanese bombs in order to fulfil the scientific studies that later inspired films such as The War Game.



Obviously no-one knows for sure - thank god we don't. We can, however, use scientific method in order to extrapolate what would happen, and minds immeasurably superior to mine have proven that, whilst bad, nuclear winter simply would not be as bad as men such as Carl Sagan (whose research formed the basis for the world of Threads) suggested .

So what you're saying is that no matter how severe the attack, that the government would still have full control over the entirety of the UK? I know this is the case in Protect and Survive but I just wanted to be certain. I'm interested to know because in the Twilight 2000 rpg (which was about a limited nuclear war between NATO and the War Pact in 1997) it was stated, if I properly recall, that the government only really controlled the southeastern part of England south of the Thames and east of Southhampton, with the rest of the country being pretty much left to its own devices. If I remember right, there was a petty warlord in Cornwall who styled himself as the "Duke of Cornwall" or something like that.:p Based on what you've written this scenario would be pretty much ASB. It wouldn't be surprising though, since the authors of T2K took other liberties with reality as well, such as a Soviet invastion of Alaska and a joint Mexican-Soviet invasion of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas, with the Soviet division ending up occupying San Antonio.
 

Macragge1

Banned
So what you're saying is that no matter how severe the attack, that the government would still have full control over the entirety of the UK? I know this is the case in Protect and Survive but I just wanted to be certain. I'm interested to know because in the Twilight 2000 rpg (which was about a limited nuclear war between NATO and the War Pact in 1997) it was stated, if I properly recall, that the government only really controlled the southeastern part of England south of the Thames and east of Southhampton, with the rest of the country being pretty much left to its own devices. If I remember right, there was a petty warlord in Cornwall who styled himself as the "Duke of Cornwall" or something like that.:p Based on what you've written this scenario would be pretty much ASB. It wouldn't be surprising though, since the authors of T2K took other liberties with reality as well, such as a Soviet invastion of Alaska and a joint Mexican-Soviet invasion of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas, with the Soviet division ending up occupying San Antonio.

The problem is that there won't be a single government post-attack, but rather a series of smaller, regional governments (i.e North-Eastern Region, South-Western Region) that are nominally commanded by a central government in a bunker such as CHANTICLEER. In the event of a massive attack, these regions would be forced into at least some level of autonomy for a while as communications are cut. Even a while after the attack, the day-to-day running of each region would be left to Regional Govt., whilst the central govt. (i.e CHANTICLEER) would focus more upon broad policy and the international situation (as well as waging what's left of the war)

These governments will not have complete control of the UK, as they will be massively overstretched. They will almost certainly, however, control areas that matter, such as cities and airports; today's Afghanistan is not a perfect example, but there is a similarity. They will control the food supply.

The badlands will be mostly ignored and left to wither unless there is cause to need them - i.e food, living space (see the Battle of Felton in P&S) or if they create threats to the regional authorities.

Any attempts at full scale secession, as with the 'Duke of Cornwall', would be met with an equally full scale armed response, including the use of precious fuel for tanks and aircraft if necessary. In a world where the authorities need every inch of useable land, every scrap of food and every moment of manpower, the idea of losing a huge amount to traitors (this is treason in a world where you can be shot out of hand for just about any offence) is unthinkable.
 
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