Post-Napoleonic French Belgium?

Is it possible, with a POD set after Napoleon's defeat in 1815, for France to get most, if not all, of modern day Belgium? Or was the 1830 Talleyrand partition plan the best they could hope for?
 
Well, for one thing, Britain was certainly not going to agree on French Flanders. Nobody was going to let France get away with Luxembourg either. As for Belgian population, at the possible exception of Liège, there wasn't this much thrill for it.
The best you can hope, and that's not really realistic IMO, would be a return to 1814 borders

EDIT : Sorry, understood in the immediate aftermath of Napoleonic defeat.
Talleyrand Plan was kinda...well, it doesn't really show great quality which is surprising giving who tought it and safe the principle of geopolitical balance, it doesn't hold well.
Basically, Belgians had at this point a sense of national community and wouldn't take partition very well.

Giving that no one was interested complexifying even more this mess, everyone was fine with an independent Belgium. Britain because it didn't dirsupted the continental status quo, France because there was the hope to annex it later, and Germany because the mot du jour was containing revolutions.

After that you have Napoleon III tried to negotiate hard for part or all of Belgium (+Luxembourg) in exchange of accepting German unity, but it wasn't going to be a thing as long Britain opposes and boy did she.

Basically you need to curb down British geopolitical power down enough to allow France getting a free rein in Low Countries OR having early enough an unified Germany on steroids to the point even London would rather see a strong France.
 
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Basically you need to curb down British geopolitical power down enough to allow France getting a free rein in Low Countries OR having early enough an unified Germany on steroids to the point even London would rather see a strong France.
So an early German unification plus a Habsburg collapse in 1848 (so this uber-Germany gets not only the OTL German Empire territories, but Austria and Bohemia as well) could do the trick?
 
So an early German unification plus a Habsburg collapse in 1848 (so this uber-Germany gets not only the OTL German Empire territories, but Austria and Bohemia as well) could do the trick?
Wouldn't that weaken a bit the militaro-industrial potential of Germany, while extending a bit too much its geopolitical sphere? I was thinking more to a semi-Big Germany with Bohemia and Austria, and with an even more militaristic drive institutionally-wise.
I'm not sure how or if it can be done, tough.
 
Wouldn't that weaken a bit the militaro-industrial potential of Germany, while extending a bit too much its geopolitical sphere? I was thinking more to a semi-Big Germany with Bohemia and Austria, and with an even more militaristic drive institutionally-wise.
I'm not sure how or if it can be done, tough.
This hypothetical German Empire would get Austria (the area around Vienna, Tyrol, and the like) and Bohemia, not the whole Habsburg Empire. Hungary would be an independent state, Lombardy-Venetia would go to Sardinia, and Galicia to the Russian Empire. This Germany would be big enough to scare a lot of people, but not big to the point of overextension.
 

althisfan

Banned
Leopold I takes the offer of the Greek throne instead, so that leaves the idea of Louis Phillippe's son as the best idea for Belgium after all. Have Victoria sack Palmerstone as PM for some reason ("I hate you" as she did, should be enough given her view that she was more than a figure head and his view that she had no reason to know about foreign affairs). Timely placed deaths in the right order and we have a French-Belgium personal union; France goes Republic as per OTL but this time, the inclusion of Belgium causes a compromise- Belgium is annexed, but the King is still king of all France (or "of the French") as a powerless head of state, just a symbol (with monetary compensation and stipend).
 
Here's a very rough TL idea:

1830: Belgian revolt is suppressed by force.
1848: Belgium revolts once again, and said revolt is much larger and bloddier than the first one. At the same time, Uber-Germany is unified, causing a war with France, who somehow occupies Belgium.
Post 1848: Franco-German war is a stalemate (German unification is recognized, but they can't defeat the french). The resulting treaty gives Belgium to the French Republic/Second Empire, as a counterbalance to Uber-Germany.

Is this possible, or too far-fetched?
 

althisfan

Banned
Here's a very rough TL idea:

1830: Belgian revolt is suppressed by force.
1848: Belgium revolts once again, and said revolt is much larger and bloddier than the first one. At the same time, Uber-Germany is unified, causing a war with France, who somehow occupies Belgium.
Post 1848: Franco-German war is a stalemate (German unification is recognized, but they can't defeat the french). The resulting treaty gives Belgium to the French Republic/Second Empire, as a counterbalance to Uber-Germany.

Is this possible, or too far-fetched?
I don't think Britain and the international community would allow the Netherlands to suppress the revolt. That would need you to figure out the first POD to be why the international community, and the UK in particular, to allow the Dutch to do what they need to do to keep the Southern Provinces.
 
Would it be possible to see the social struggles in Britain to evolve out of relatively consensual management? Would Ernst-August inheriting the throne with an earlier death of William IV (that's a lot of PoDs, granted) be enough for a major political crisis in this direction?
 
I don't think Britain and the international community would allow the Netherlands to suppress the revolt. That would need you to figure out the first POD to be why the international community, and the UK in particular, to allow the Dutch to do what they need to do to keep the Southern Provinces.
Why would they not allow the Netherlands to suppress it, though? Did they (the Dutch) lose control of the situation, or woud such repression be too brutal/damaging to the balance of power in Europe?
 

althisfan

Banned
Why would they not allow the Netherlands to suppress it, though? Did they (the Dutch) lose control of the situation, or woud such repression be too brutal/damaging to the balance of power in Europe?
Mostly I would say it is because France saw that they would have more influence over Belgium as an independent nation; and Britain in return saw that if the situation continued it would drag France in. In fact France did get involved when Netherlands ignored the London Conference that recognized Belgium as independent. In OTL the son of the French King was first offered the crown of Belgium, but the British protested and it ended up going to Queen Victoria's uncle (who had recently been offered the Greek throne, but turned it down because of a dispute on what his powers and monetary compensation would be).
 
Mostly I would say it is because France saw that they would have more influence over Belgium as an independent nation; and Britain in return saw that if the situation continued it would drag France in. In fact France did get involved when Netherlands ignored the London Conference that recognized Belgium as independent. In OTL the son of the French King was first offered the crown of Belgium, but the British protested and it ended up going to Queen Victoria's uncle (who had recently been offered the Greek throne, but turned it down because of a dispute on what his powers and monetary compensation would be).
So, say that the Dutch nip the Belgian revolt in the bud before it grows too large. Is that a possibility?
 

althisfan

Banned
So, say that the Dutch nip the Belgian revolt in the bud before it grows too large. Is that a possibility?
The answer to your question surpasses my knowledge on the subject. But if I can find time to do some research I'll let you know my thoughts. Hope someone here knows more.
 
Wouldn't that weaken a bit the militaro-industrial potential of Germany, while extending a bit too much its geopolitical sphere? I was thinking more to a semi-Big Germany with Bohemia and Austria, and with an even more militaristic drive institutionally-wise.
I'm not sure how or if it can be done, tough.

This semi-big Germany would be bigger than 1939 Germany post annexation of Bohemia and would scare the whole of Europe which would coalize to check it.
 
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