Post Napoleonic Europe

Survival of Napoleonic States

  • Napoleonic Kingdom of Italy

    Votes: 17 42.5%
  • Kingdom of Etruria

    Votes: 8 20.0%
  • Grand Duchy of Berg

    Votes: 7 17.5%
  • Kingdom of Westphalia

    Votes: 15 37.5%
  • Grand Duchies of Frankfurt, Salzburg and Würzburg

    Votes: 10 25.0%
  • Grand Duchy of Warsaw

    Votes: 16 40.0%
  • Illyrian States

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • Septinsular Republic

    Votes: 4 10.0%
  • Duchy of Lucca & Piombino

    Votes: 9 22.5%

  • Total voters
    40
There was quite a bit of political jockeying at the Congress of Vienna with several Napoleonic-era figures being either considered, or actually placed on thrones following his fall.

Of course, the Hundred Days wrecked Murat's ambitions to remain king of Naples, but what would be the state with the best chance of survival under an independent (not necessarily Bonapartist) king? Please vote and say why you think so.
 
I don't see any of these surviving under an independant king, unless you change the way Napoleon falls. Maybe, and really maybe, the Habsburgs take over the title of King of Italy, but that wouldn't be an independant king.
 

dead_wolf

Banned
Jean Bernadotte obviously became King of Sweden shortly after the war, but he was actually considered a contender for the throne of France after the Hundred Days. It's an incredible long shot - the Russians are the only ones backing him, and even they are split between putting him on the throne or the duc d'Orléans, Louis Philippe. As well Bernadotte has already been Crown Prince & Regent of Sweden for five years, so I really doubt he's going to throw away a certain throne & stability for higher gains.
 
Can you add a 'none' option? Unless Napoleon wins, all of those states are going to be eliminated by the Congress of Vienna.
 
The Grand Duchy of Berg and the Grand Duchies of Frankfurt, Salzburg and Würzburg could very easily have survived like their fellow Napoleonic creations Württemberg, Saxony and Baden. Remember post-1815 Germany was completely different from pre-1791, around half of the Napoleonic creations survived intact and while his set up is going to get altered with Prussia almost certain to get some lands back and Britain is going to force the recreation of Hannover (though that's out of land annexed to France) the bits annexed to Prussia and Austria and the bits left independent could very easily have changed. Just have slightly different decisions made at the Congress of Vienna and goodbye Saxony and a reprieve for Berg.

Septinsular Republic survived in OTL though it got renamed the Ionian Islands and came under British dominion. That's probably inevitable. The Principality of Lucca and Piombino also could have survived though with a restored Bourbon or Hapsburg cadet on the throne.
 
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The Kingdom of Etruria could survive... After all, it was nothing more than an upgrade of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany only with different rulers. Restored Haspburgs in Tuscany could ask to keep the title King of Etruria.

That said, I'm highly skeptical at any of Napoleon's creation surviving his fall... The Illyrian Provinces aren't going to survive for sure: Austria wants them back. Same for Westphalia: it's created from Hanover and bits of Prussia, so it has no chances of surviving. As for the Grand Duchy of Warsaw, unless the Allies find themselves wanting to resurrect Poland, I highly doubt it will survive.

In the case of Italy, it was ruled by Napoleon in name and the viceroy was his stepson, Eugene de Beauharnais. Eugene was also Napoleon's heir for the Kingdom of Italy unless he had a second son. Eugene was popular among the allies I believe and he got along very well with his Bavarian stepfamily, but he was far too loyal to Napoleon so I don't think the Allies would consider him keeping the throne. No that a unified peninsula has better chances of surviving: Italy was nothing more than a concept to Metternich (if I remember one of his quotes right).

Lucca & Piombino technically survived Napoleon's fall: it was given to the Bourbons of Parma in compensation to the fact Marie Louise had been granted Parma. But given that the Bourbons of Parma eventually recovered Parma after Marie Louise's death...
Stolengood said:
Awwww... no Koenig Lodewig? :(
Well, Napoleon kind of ruined Louis' chance of keeping his Kingdom of Holland when he overthrew him and annexed the Netherlands to France in 1810.
 
The Kingdom of Etruria could survive... After all, it was nothing more than an upgrade of the Grand Duchy of Tuscany only with different rulers. Restored Haspburgs in Tuscany could ask to keep the title King of Etruria.

Just out of curiosity, the Grand Duchy of Tuscany that Elisa Bonaparte ruled and the kingdom of Etruria ruled by the Bourbons was for all intents and purposes the same state with the same borders. Yet Napoleon never made his sister a queen, Hell, he never even allowed her the same ruling powers as he and his brothers. He told her when she countermanded an order to arrest the Queen of England (Luise of Stolberg), that she had no right to do so (as her brothers did), merely to appeal to Paris. Did that have something to do with a misogynistic streak in his nature?

In the case of Italy, it was ruled by Napoleon in name and the viceroy was his stepson, Eugene de Beauharnais. Eugene was also Napoleon's heir for the Kingdom of Italy unless he had a second son. Eugene was popular among the allies I believe and he got along very well with his Bavarian stepfamily, but he was far too loyal to Napoleon so I don't think the Allies would consider him keeping the throne. No that a unified peninsula has better chances of surviving: Italy was nothing more than a concept to Metternich (if I remember one of his quotes right).

Eugene de Beauharnais was understandably loyal to Napoleon until his first abdication. Thereafter, during the Hundred Days, his Bavarian in-laws (pushed by the allies) made him swear not to help Napoleon, at the risk of forfeiting anything he had gained out of the deal (principality of Eichstatt, duchy of Leuchtenberg). He was also designated the successor to the Grand Duchy of Frankfurt during the Empire, so perhaps the Congress could reason that that would be suitable recompensation for him. I mean, the king of France was at first willing to recompensate Hortense with the dukedom of St-Leu (she lost it in the 100 Days), why couldn't Eugene remain as Grand Duke of Frankfurt?

Also, the Grand Duchy of Berg was (theoretically) in the hands of the prince royal of Holland, Louis II Bonaparte. What would be cool is if the Netherlands picks up Berg at the Congress, and uses it as a sort of secundogeniture for the prince of Orange, or that it goes to another branch of the house of Nassau (don't know which ones were still drifting around).

The Grand Duchies of Salzburg and Würzburg were simply the restyled territories of the previous archbishoprics. They were originally created for the deposed Grand Duke of Tuscany. So maybe a Tuscan prince or a personal union with Tuscany for one of them. There were more than enough Hapsburg archdukes floating around in 1815.

As to the Grand Duchy of Warsaw, it was kept as the so-called Congress Kingdom of Poland. It was ruled in personal union by the Russian emperor. It could be united with the duchy of Danzig and given to...well, IDK who would be a good candidate.
 
The Grand Duchy of Berg and the Grand Duchies of Frankfurt, Salzburg and Würzburg could very easily have survived like their fellow Napoleonic creations Württemberg, Saxony and Baden. Remember post-1815 Germany was completely different from pre-1791, around half of the Napoleonic creations survived intact and while his set up is going to get altered with Prussia almost certain to get some lands back and Britain is going to force the recreation of Hannover (though that's out of land annexed to France) the bits annexed to Prussia and Austria and the bits left independent could very easily have changed. Just have slightly different decisions made at the Congress of Vienna and goodbye Saxony and a reprieve for Berg.

There is a significant difference between those german states that survived the congress of Vienna and those that didn't.
While Württember, Saxony, Bavaria and Baden (and some other Hessian states) where given a higher rank (eg. Bavaria becoming a kingdom) and gained additional territories for their allegiance to Napoleon, they where still ruled by their established dynastic rulers. On the other hand Westphalia, the Grand Duchy of Frankfurt and the Grand Duchy of Würzburg where "napoleonic model states", with the full employment of the code civil (not sure about Würzburg) and non-heridatary rulers:
1. Westphalia was first Murat and then Bonaparte
2. Frankfurt was first the (then no more) Prince-Archbishp of Mainz and later Napoleon's stepson.
3. Würzburg afaik was ruled by a Habsburg (a brother of the emperor iirc).
 
JonasResende said:
Eugene de Beauharnais was understandably loyal to Napoleon until his first abdication. Thereafter, during the Hundred Days, his Bavarian in-laws (pushed by the allies) made him swear not to help Napoleon, at the risk of forfeiting anything he had gained out of the deal (principality of Eichstatt, duchy of Leuchtenberg). He was also designated the successor to the Grand Duchy of Frankfurt during the Empire, so perhaps the Congress could reason that that would be suitable recompensation for him. I mean, the king of France was at first willing to recompensate Hortense with the dukedom of St-Leu (she lost it in the 100 Days), why couldn't Eugene remain as Grand Duke of Frankfurt?
From what I had understood, Eugene had fought (and quite well) in Italy until Napoleon abdicated. Then, during the Hundread Days, he was sort of forced out by his stepfamily not to intervene: that would be another way to look at the fact he would have lost Leuchtenberg if he had joined Napoleon.

It's also my impression that the Congress of Vienna took out every ruler Napoleon had put on a throne save for a few that 1) were Dynasts 2) switched sides at the last time. And even then, these rulers weren't well looked by the Allies: I believe Frederick Augustus of Saxony nearly lost his throne during the negotiations. So I don't think they would want to give Eugene a principality on which he could rule.
JonasResende said:
As to the Grand Duchy of Warsaw, it was kept as the so-called Congress Kingdom of Poland. It was ruled in personal union by the Russian emperor. It could be united with the duchy of Danzig and given to...well, IDK who would be a good candidate.
The fact Russia got Congress Poland would actually convince me that the Allies didn't want an independant Poland. Especially the Russians who always saw the Grand Duchy of Warsaw as a threat: that was one of the reasons for the break up of the Peace of Tilsit. Maybe the Russians could agree into making Poland a puppet state under a relative of the czar but I think they'd rather keep it non-existent.
Treppe said:
1. Westphalia was first Murat and then Bonaparte
Actually, Jerôme Bonaparte was King of Westphalia from the moment Napoleon creating that Kingdom. Before becoming King of Naples, Murat was the one who was Grand Duke of Berg I believe.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Personally, I don't see any of them surviving. The whole point of the Vienna Congress was to revert Europe back to as close to 1791 as humanly possible, the only reason Germany went unchanged was because no one wanted the HRE back.

As for Italy...well you got me there, I assumed it was because post Napoleon they wouldn't want a republic in Europe ever again, but then I wouldn't know how to explain Switzerland...
 
Personally, I don't see any of them surviving. The whole point of the Vienna Congress was to revert Europe back to as close to 1791 as humanly possible, the only reason Germany went unchanged was because no one wanted the HRE back.

As for Italy...well you got me there, I assumed it was because post Napoleon they wouldn't want a republic in Europe ever again, but then I wouldn't know how to explain Switzerland...

Yeah pretty much this. Germany was a close to the old days without reviving the HRE and ecclesiastical states. As for Italy, it did have some changes, like not reviving Genoa or Venice, but for the most part pre-French revolution prevailed. Switzerland was really the exception rather then the rule. The Swiss wouldn't accept a King/Duke/Prince and the Congress powers knew that. And sense they never really caused a war, no harm was done in keeping a Swiss Republic/confederation.
 
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