Post Davis Confederate Presidents?

TFSmith121

Banned
Your faith in Lee is strong...

What "Loyal South"? The entire South would back Lee over Davis. Bragg's men would back Lee over Davis or Bragg. If he has to count on Bragg, Davis might as well shoot himself on the spot and not drag out the agony.

Your faith in Lee is strong...;)

The question is "what Lee"? The loser in West Virginia in 1861? "Rapidly Excavate" Lee in 1861-62? Davis' fourth choice for the army in Virginia in 1862, after GW Smith?

Or if he's the same Lee as who died in 1870, the question is - what army does he have in 1866?

If its the Army of Northern Virginia, the question has to be asked, why is there even an army? Is the war still going on? If not, guess what - there ain't going to be an Army of Northern Virginia; the PACS is gone and the ACSA consists of a few dozen officers. If there is some sort of RA, the question has to be: who's across the border?

Someone - ideally the OP, since it's (his or her) thread - has to offer how one gets from 1861 to 1866. Without that, it's so vague as to be unanswerable.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
In 1861?

Beauregard? He hated Davis, there is no way in Hell he is going to back Davis over just about anybody. Unless he had a burning hatred for Lee I don't know about he is going to back Lee. Face it, if Lee were to turn on him Davis would be dead.

In 1861? Hardly.

In 1866? Lee is 63 years old and four years from the stroke that kills him; Davis is a year younger and lived for another 23 years.

Lee without an army in 1866 is one old man, driven from his home. Davis in 1866 is commander-in-chief of the rebel armed forces...

Best,
 
Your faith in Lee is strong...;)

The question is "what Lee"? The loser in West Virginia in 1861? "Rapidly Excavate" Lee in 1861-62? Davis' fourth choice for the army in Virginia in 1862, after GW Smith?

Or if he's the same Lee as who died in 1870, the question is - what army does he have in 1866?

If its the Army of Northern Virginia, the question has to be asked, why is there even an army? Is the war still going on? If not, guess what - there ain't going to be an Army of Northern Virginia; the PACS is gone and the ACSA consists of a few dozen officers. If there is some sort of RA, the question has to be: who's across the border?

Someone - ideally the OP, since it's (his or her) thread - has to offer how one gets from 1861 to 1866. Without that, it's so vague as to be unanswerable.

Best,

Obviously it is 1866 since it is the Post-Davis presidency and Davis wouldn't legally have to leave office until then.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Okay, but are they still at war?

Obviously it is 1866 since it is the Post-Davis presidency and Davis wouldn't legally have to leave office until then.

Okay, but are they still at war? Who gets to vote? What's left of the rebellion?

Or if not, and its "peacetime," then there's no army for Lee to lead against President for Life Davis, is there?

Again, these are the questions that have to be dealt with before any sort of answers can even be suggested... its like saying who takes over in Ireland in 1922 without offering any sort of explanation of what happened since 1916.

Best,
 
In 1861? Hardly.

In 1866? Lee is 63 years old and four years from the stroke that kills him; Davis is a year younger and lived for another 23 years.

Lee without an army in 1866 is one old man, driven from his home. Davis in 1866 is commander-in-chief of the rebel armed forces...

Best,

Lee without the army is still by far the most popular man in the CSA. Lee is probably going to be the person who is going to be elected in 1866. The army , whatever there is of it, would always follow Lee over Davis.

I am actually no Lee worshiper but the fact is that the South practically worshipped RE Lee and still does for that matter. What Davis says doesn't matter if no one listens to him and practically no one would have listened to him over the objections of RE Lee. Facts are facts and the fact is that even today Southerners tend to think RE Lee walked on water not talking about back then.
 
Okay, but are they still at war? Who gets to vote? What's left of the rebellion?

Or if not, and its "peacetime," then there's no army for Lee to lead against President for Life Davis, is there?

Again, these are the questions that have to be dealt with before any sort of answers can even be suggested... its like saying who takes over in Ireland in 1922 without offering any sort of explanation of what happened since 1916.

Best,

It really doesn't matter as practically no one down South would have backed Davis over Lee. Someone here has sarcastically called him "St. Robert of Arlington" over the way people down South worship Lee. They are going to pick Lee over Davis EVERY TIME.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Who choses the electors?

Lee without the army is still by far the most popular man in the CSA. Lee is probably going to be the person who is going to be elected in 1866. The army , whatever there is of it, would always follow Lee over Davis. I am actually no Lee worshiper but the fact is that the South practically worshipped RE Lee and still does for that matter. What Davis says doesn't matter if no one listens to him and practically no one would have listened to him over the objections of RE Lee. Facts are facts and the fact is that even today Southerners tend to think RE Lee walked on water not talking about back then.

Who choses the electors?

From the Constitution of the so-called Confederate States:

ARTICLE II


Section I. (I) The executive power shall be vested in a President of the Confederate States of America. He and the Vice President shall hold their offices for the term of six years; but the President shall not be reeligible. The President and Vice President shall be elected as follows:
(2) Each State shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress; but no Senator or Representative or person holding an office of trust or profit under the Confederate States shall be appointed an elector.
(3) The electors shall meet in their respective States and vote by ballot for President and Vice President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same State with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit, sealed, to the seat of the Government of. the Confederate States, directed to the President of the Senate; the President of the Senate shall,in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates, and the votes shall then be counted; the person having the greatest number of votes for President shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers, not exceeding three, on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President the votes shall be taken by States, the representation from each State having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the States, and a majority of all the States shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President, whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the 4th day of March next following, then the Vice President shall act as President, as in case of the death, or other constitutional disability of the President.
(4) The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice President shall be the Vice President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed; and if no person have a majority, then, from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice.
(5) But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice President of the Confederate States. (6) The Congress may determine the time of choosing the electors, and the day on which they shall give their votes; which day shall be the same throughout the Confederate States.

What can Lee do for the state legislators? Or the representatives?

Davis has all those tasty rebel graybacks to spread around, and has been doing just that for six years.

Lee is an old man without any political constituency, any patronage, or any money. Even if he is the military genius of the age, that doesn't translate to any political power, especially if - somehow - the rebels have won (again, when?) and he's been put out to pasture.

And if the answer is "the barrel of a gun" it stands to reason that the commander in chief of the confederate army and navy has a lot more at hand than some retiree ever would.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Yet oddly enough, Davis was the man in charge

It really doesn't matter as practically no one down South would have backed Davis over Lee. Someone here has sarcastically called him "St. Robert of Arlington" over the way people down South worship Lee. They are going to pick Lee over Davis EVERY TIME.

Yet oddly enough, Davis was the man in charge.

Again, you're expecting the man who would be the most succssful revolutionary in the western world since - well, forever - to peacefully give up power.

Seems rather unlikely, given what he was willing to do in the first place to gain power.

Best,
 
Yet oddly enough, Davis was the man in charge.

Again, you're expecting the man who would be the most succssful revolutionary in the western world since - well, forever - to peacefully give up power.

Seems rather unlikely, given what he was willing to do in the first place to gain power.

Best,

How long would he be in charge if Lee decides to play Napoleon? A week?
 
Who choses the electors?

From the Constitution of the so-called Confederate States:

ARTICLE II


Section I. (I) The executive power shall be vested in a President of the Confederate States of America. He and the Vice President shall hold their offices for the term of six years; but the President shall not be reeligible. The President and Vice President shall be elected as follows:
(2) Each State shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress; but no Senator or Representative or person holding an office of trust or profit under the Confederate States shall be appointed an elector.
(3) The electors shall meet in their respective States and vote by ballot for President and Vice President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same State with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit, sealed, to the seat of the Government of. the Confederate States, directed to the President of the Senate; the President of the Senate shall,in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates, and the votes shall then be counted; the person having the greatest number of votes for President shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers, not exceeding three, on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President the votes shall be taken by States, the representation from each State having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the States, and a majority of all the States shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President, whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the 4th day of March next following, then the Vice President shall act as President, as in case of the death, or other constitutional disability of the President.
(4) The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice President shall be the Vice President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed; and if no person have a majority, then, from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice.
(5) But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice President of the Confederate States. (6) The Congress may determine the time of choosing the electors, and the day on which they shall give their votes; which day shall be the same throughout the Confederate States.

What can Lee do for the state legislators? Or the representatives?

Davis has all those tasty rebel graybacks to spread around, and has been doing just that for six years.

Lee is an old man without any political constituency, any patronage, or any money. Even if he is the military genius of the age, that doesn't translate to any political power, especially if - somehow - the rebels have won (again, when?) and he's been put out to pasture.

And if the answer is "the barrel of a gun" it stands to reason that the commander in chief of the confederate army and navy has a lot more at hand than some retiree ever would.

Best,

The same constitution you said he'd ignore to remain in power. You can't have ti both ways. Either he obeys the constitution and he is out or he disregards and nothing said in it matters. Lee has one thing going for him and that is the vast majority of the Southern populace will follow him. You are seriously underestimating the popularity of RE Lee. I actually don't like the guy and think he is vastly overestimated as a general but facts are facts he has a massive following even today.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Davis was the commander in chief and had much

How long would he be in charge if Lee decides to play Napoleon? A week?

Davis was the commander in chief and had many more resources to call upon from 1861 to 1865; my bet would be as long as he wished.

Best,
 
Davis was the commander in chief and had many more resources to call upon from 1861 to 1865; my bet would be as long as he wished.

Best,

He would be commander in chief for only as long as it takes Lee to raise an army of his own which might take him a day, if he is slow about it. If Lee plays Napoleon , Davis's own men turn on him.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
No, two different scenarios; Lee has been suggested as

The same constitution you said he'd ignore to remain in power. You can't have ti both ways. Either he obeys the constitution and he is out or he disregards and nothing said in it matters. Lee has one thing going for him and that is the vast majority of the Southern populace will follow him. You are seriously underestimating the popularity of RE Lee. I actually don't like the guy and think he is vastly overestimated as a general but facts are facts he has a massive following even today.

No, two different scenarios:

a) Lee has been suggested as the obvious candidate in a "peaceful" 1866; the problem there is he has no political constituency;
b) Davis gives up power peacefully - question is why he is any different than 99 percent of all other revolutionary leaders?

No one, including the OP, has ever suggested what the hell happens between 1861 and 1866, so it's pretty unclear what the political and strategic backdrop of "this" 1866 is supposed to be...

However, in either case (a or b), Davis is the only man in the rebellion with any actual power. He's the commander in chief; such men tend not to give up power peacefully.

Like I said earlier, it's kind of touching that anyone thinks the confederacy would be any different than Argentina, Chile, Peru, Gran Colombia, or Mexico. Or France. Or the Protectorate in England.

Best,
 
No, two different scenarios:

a) Lee has been suggested as the obvious candidate in a "peaceful" 1866; the problem there is he has no political constituency;
b) Davis gives up power peacefully - question is why he is any different than 99 percent of all other revolutionary leaders?

No one, including the OP, has ever suggested what the hell happens between 1861 and 1866, so it's pretty unclear what the political and strategic backdrop of "this" 1866 is supposed to be...

However, in either case (a or b), Davis is the only man in the rebellion with any actual power. He's the commander in chief; such men tend not to give up power peacefully.

Like I said earlier, it's kind of touching that anyone thinks the confederacy would be any different than Argentina, Chile, Peru, Gran Colombia, or Mexico. Or France. Or the Protectorate in England.

Best,

Lee has no political constituency? You strongly underestimate the "Lee Worship" of the South. He is like God down there. If you have read my past statements over time you can see I am no "Lee Worshipper" as even as a general I think he is overrated.Lee Overrated As a human being he is even more overrated but that doesn't negate the fact that there is and was a lot of "Lee Worship" down South and that translates a huge political constituency.
 
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