Post-Clontarf Consolidation: Is Ua Briain Centralisation of the Kingship plausible?

Would you be interested in a Medieval Ireland TL starting with Clontarf in 1014?

  • Yes it would be interesting

  • You could use a more creative PoD

  • No, it is too overdone


Results are only viewable after voting.
Well, first things first, please answer the poll above as I just want to gauge interest in the topic before I start with planning and writing.

My basic idea here is that Brian Boru crushes Máel Mórda’s rebellion at Clontarf and survives the battle (let’s suppose the whole incident with Brodir is true but he is killed in the fighting.) In addition, Brian’s son Murchad survives the battle as well. Essentially this allows Brian a few more years of consolidation in order to lay the groundwork for a more centralized Irish monarchy centered around the Ua Briain Dynasty in Munster (with a close partnership with the influential Ui Néill.)

What do you all think is the most plausible result of such a PoD? What would be the potential effect on the development of the British Isles and Europe?

I’ll start with my thoughts. I’m thinking that the Ua Briain manage to create a semi-centralized Kingdom in Ireland that is certainly more organized than the Kingship of Tara but still not as powerful as the continental kingships. My idea is that Brian partners with the Ui Néill by affirming their control of the influential monastery in Armagh and attempting to centralize it as the central church in Ireland. Also I am thinking that a run of influential leadership at some point could juggle clan privileges with royal authority and manage to get somewhere along the lines of Anglo-Saxon Kingship. The Irish Kings might partner with the Danish Kings of England in an attempt to subjugate the Scottish at some point. Anything after that is uncharted territory for me though. And just for the record, I think the PoD is far enough back that the Norman Conquest will not occur in the same form it did IOTL so they probably won’t play the same role in Irish politics that they did in our world.

So here I’ll leave the floor to you guys. Any ideas or plausible future for the Ua Briain dynasty and their newly forged Kingdom of Éire?
 
Well, first things first, please answer the poll above as I just want to gauge interest in the topic before I start with planning and writing.

My basic idea here is that Brian Boru crushes Máel Mórda’s rebellion at Clontarf and survives the battle (let’s suppose the whole incident with Brodir is true but he is killed in the fighting.) In addition, Brian’s son Murchad survives the battle as well. Essentially this allows Brian a few more years of consolidation in order to lay the groundwork for a more centralized Irish monarchy centered around the Ua Briain Dynasty in Munster (with a close partnership with the influential Ui Néill.)

What do you all think is the most plausible result of such a PoD? What would be the potential effect on the development of the British Isles and Europe?

I’ll start with my thoughts. I’m thinking that the Ua Briain manage to create a semi-centralized Kingdom in Ireland that is certainly more organized than the Kingship of Tara but still not as powerful as the continental kingships. My idea is that Brian partners with the Ui Néill by affirming their control of the influential monastery in Armagh and attempting to centralize it as the central church in Ireland. Also I am thinking that a run of influential leadership at some point could juggle clan privileges with royal authority and manage to get somewhere along the lines of Anglo-Saxon Kingship. The Irish Kings might partner with the Danish Kings of England in an attempt to subjugate the Scottish at some point. Anything after that is uncharted territory for me though. And just for the record, I think the PoD is far enough back that the Norman Conquest will not occur in the same form it did IOTL so they probably won’t play the same role in Irish politics that they did in our world.

So here I’ll leave the floor to you guys. Any ideas or plausible future for the Ua Briain dynasty and their newly forged Kingdom of Éire?

I'd be very interested to see something like this. However, I know next to nothing of Irish history, so I can't really comment on whether it's plausible or no.
 
A rival! Interesting.

Seriously though another Irish-TL would be interesting to read and I suggest you go for it. From my previous research writing my own story though Brian already had ideas to centralise the kingship using the church to grant him and 'Emperor of Ireland' title making him the undisputed ruler so there's already a base there for you.
 
A rival! Interesting.

Seriously though another Irish-TL would be interesting to read and I suggest you go for it. From my previous research writing my own story though Brian already had ideas to centralise the kingship using the church to grant him and 'Emperor of Ireland' title making him the undisputed ruler so there's already a base there for you.

Thanks, I’ll defintely check out your story!

As for the church, yeah I had read somewhere about that in doing some research and I think it’s pretty interesting to think about how Ireland could have progressed if his policies had continued, compared to what we got. Always nice to see someone else writing a Irish TL, I’ve found them too and far between.
 
Thanks, I’ll definitely check out your story!

As for the church, yeah I had read somewhere about that in doing some research and I think it’s pretty interesting to think about how Ireland could have progressed if his policies had continued, compared to what we got. Always nice to see someone else writing an Irish TL, I’ve found them too and far between.
And I hope to read yours soon.
 
No one wants to delve into the intricate world of Irish tribal politics?? Color me surprised :biggrin:
I mean, I've played a bit around with using Ulf Hreda / Wolf the Quarrelsome as the center point of a unified Norse Ireland, but nothing too fancy...
 
Interesting, at least it's not the usual completely centralised state that so often happens in "wank Ireland" threads.
I'd be wary of labelling the High King as Emperor though. Whilst "imperator" could get occasionally used it's probably inevitably reserved to a Roman context. An Irish equivalent term might be useful if you want to drop King or reserve that for his subkings (compare origins of Welsh Brenin versus Ri). Alternatively you could follow the English method of downgrading the subkings to Princes (mainly reserved the Welsh kings) or Earls (the highest rank preConquest and more like continental Dukes than Counts, compare Norse Jarls).
 
Interesting, at least it's not the usual completely centralised state that so often happens in "wank Ireland" threads.
I'd be wary of labelling the High King as Emperor though. Whilst "imperator" could get occasionally used it's probably inevitably reserved to a Roman context. An Irish equivalent term might be useful if you want to drop King or reserve that for his subkings (compare origins of Welsh Brenin versus Ri). Alternatively you could follow the English method of downgrading the subkings to Princes (mainly reserved the Welsh kings) or Earls (the highest rank preConquest and more like continental Dukes than Counts, compare Norse Jarls).

Trust me, I am trying hard to make this fairly realistic with enough setbacks and losses not to make this a wank :coldsweat:

I agree, I’m thinking that Imperator Scotorum is a probably too “absolute” and ambitious and it will fall out of use after Brian’s death. The succession of Kings will most likely try and demote his subject clans from their status as Rí down to something like Earls, and have the king use the style “Rí na hÉireann” or “Rex Hiberniae.”

It’s definitely in the best interest of any Irish king to try and keep his subordinates from having any Kingly styles that could undermine his power so there will definitely be a continuing process of eroding clan powers in an attempt to consolidate the power of the Rí.
 
I mean, I've played a bit around with using Ulf Hreda / Wolf the Quarrelsome as the center point of a unified Norse Ireland, but nothing too fancy...

Honestly I wasn’t aware of Ulf, looks like I can give him a role in Post-Clontarf as the brother of the King. Also looks like I should probably read the relevant part of Njal’s Saga in preparation for the TL.
 
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