Post-Bosworth Ricardian Consorts?

[V-J]

I'm looking for a suitable bride for Ricky 3 post-Bosworth, (Bosworth being the POD) but I'm having a hard time stumping up a suitable candidate. I was hoping to have some French bint avaliable for him, but as I'm sure you know, France was rather pressed at that time, what with Burgundy and Brittany going arse over tit and the brood of the French Kings being less than plentiful.

Any ideas? I suppose I could wait a few years then marry him to Anne of B, although I could see the shit hitting the fan over that one, and, as I hope to put England and France on reasonably good relations, I'm looking for something a little less caustic.

 

[Fiver]

I've heard that after the death of Richard's wife, emissaries were sent to ask for the hand of Princess Joanna of Portugal. Considering her strong desire to be a nun, I'm not sure that a marriage would have occured. Also, she died in 1490, which would leave little time for producing an heir and leaving Richard a widower for the second time at age 36.

Anne of Brittany would be barely old enough in 1490, but you'd probably need Richard's England supporting Brittany in 1488, so they weren't forced to sign the Treaty of Sable with France. She was known for being intelligent and a patron of the arts, and certainly had lots of kids.

Perhaps someone from the Iberian peninsula or one of the Italian states. Bianca Maria Sforza of Milan would have been barely old enough in 1485, easily old enough in 1490.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Well, in the after-glow of victory at Bosworth, Richard may well feel strong enough to marry his niece. He'd already sworn he didn't intend to do this, but it makes sense dynastically, especially as he doesn't want anyone else marrying her, and I can't see the Pope having a problem with it. It may still piss of much of the political establishment, but what are they going to do ? Buckingham is dead, Richmond is dead, Warwick is a kid and in Richard's power as is his sister. The resentment may well fade once Elizabeth starts to give Richard a large and healthy family.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[V-J]

Some interesting suggestions there, Fiver. I was focused on France simply for historical reasons and convention but I might be forced to look elsewhere.

Grey Wolf: I'm not sure about Elizabeth of York or the idea that nobody would have kicked up a fuss about a monarch marrying his niece. She'd have a hard job to effectively marry without Richard's permission, so the possible implications of that are moot. Anyway, it's too much in the realms of Tudor agit-prop for my liking.

I could 'go domestic', of course. I was thinking of Henry Percy's sister but she was already married by this point. Bum titty.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Some interesting suggestions there, Fiver. I was focused on France simply for historical reasons and convention but I might be forced to look elsewhere.

Grey Wolf: I'm not sure about Elizabeth of York or the idea that nobody would have kicked up a fuss about a monarch marrying his niece. She'd have a hard job to effectively marry without Richard's permission, so the possible implications of that are moot. Anyway, it's too much in the realms of Tudor agit-prop for my liking.

Well, they're still Catholic and the Pope still gives people dispensations today to marry their nieces; it was certainly a popular way of keeping roya; marriages in the family in Iberia and Austria until several centuries later, and IIRC a Savoyard marriage of such relations in the mid 19th century

The fuss was about whether Richard had had Anne Neville poisoned so as to marry Elizabeth - the Yorkists included a lot of Neville retainers. I think after a victory like Bosworth, Richard could claim to be shown as God's rightful king, and sure people would complain but what I was saying was that they wouldn't rebel, and if the marriage produces children then they will probably forgive

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[V-J]

Aye, good point about the Habsburgs et al. But this is England! (Obligatory Sparta joke.)

 

[Fiver]

Thanks.

Some other possibilities would be marrying a woman from an important English family, to draw them closer, but I’m having trouble finding someone. The Percy women are all much too young or married. The Stanleys have no children or no daughters. Possibly Lucy Neville, daughter of the Marquess of Montagu.

Scandinavia might be a possibility as well.

Richard does need to get his nieces Elizabeth and Cecily married off as soon as possible, preferably to unimportant but loyal supporters or to foreign nobles. (There's not so much of a rush for the three younger girls.)

 

[Grey Wolf]

Thanks.

Some other possibilities would be marrying a woman from an important English family, to draw them closer, but I’m having trouble finding someone. The Percy women are all much too young or married. The Stanleys have no children or no daughters. Possibly Lucy Neville, daughter of the Marquess of Montagu.

Scandinavia might be a possibility as well.

Richard does need to get his nieces Elizabeth and Cecily married off as soon as possible, preferably to unimportant but loyal supporters or to foreign nobles. (There's not so much of a rush for the three younger girls.)

If he is going to marry them off he is creating potential rivals, in that any noble who marries one and gets her pregnant can claim that his son has a better claim to the throne than Richard. IMVHO this ONLY works for Richard if he himself marries the eldest

I don't really get the refusal to consider this option

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Fiver]

Well, they're still Catholic and the Pope still gives people dispensations today to marry their nieces; it was certainly a popular way of keeping roya; marriages in the family in Iberia and Austria until several centuries later, and IIRC a Savoyard marriage of such relations in the mid 19th century

And look how well the Hapsburgs turned out because of it.

The fuss was about whether Richard had had Anne Neville poisoned so as to marry Elizabeth - the Yorkists included a lot of Neville retainers.

Well, that's another reason for Richard not to marry Elizabeth - it makes the rumors look like they are true and undermines his position.

 

[Fiver]

If he is going to marry them off he is creating potential rivals, in that any noble who marries one and gets her pregnant can claim that his son has a better claim to the throne than Richard. IMVHO this ONLY works for Richard if he himself marries the eldest

I don't really get the refusal to consider this option

I'm not refusing to consider it; I'm considering it and and discarding it as extremely unlikely.

1) Marrying your first cousin was perfectly acceptable in the culture, monarchs from Richard III to Victoria did so. Marrying your niece was not, we have no examples of English monarchs doing so. Do we have examples of any English noblemen doing so?

2) There is evidence Richard tried to marry Elizabeth to one of the sons of Robert Stillington. When the potential groom died, Richard tried marry Elizabeth to the the Duke of Beja.

3) There is evidence Richard was trying to arrange a marriage for himself with Joanna of Portugal, not with Elizabeth.

4) Richard had publically denied rumors that he planned to marry Elizabeth. Marrying her means his public statements are worthless, which undermines his position. And if Richard is shown to be lying about one rumor, people will tend to believe he is lying about other rumors.

5) There were rumors that Richard had poisoned Anne in order to marry Elizabeth. If he marries Elizabeth, then he adds fuel to those rumors, undermining his position.

6) Marrying Elizabeth of York will not eliminate potential rivals to the throne, just ask Henry Tudor.

There's Lambert Simnel who at various times was claimed to be Richard of Shrewsbury or Edward of Warwick and was supported by the Earl of Lincoln, Margaret of Burgundy, and Richard of Shrewsbury's own mother Elizabeth Woodville. There's Perkin Warbeck who also claimed to be Richard of Shrewsbury and was supported by Margaret of Burgundy and William Stanley, the man who betrayed Richard III at Bosworth. There's the actual Edward of Warwick and his older sister Margaret. There's the Earl of Lincoln, and his younger brothers. (Most of these people were killed by Henry Tudor in OTL, most of the rest were imprisoned.)

7) If Richard marries Elizabeth, anyone who marries one of her younger sisters can claim that his son has a better claim to the throne since the child isn't the product of incest and wasn't fathered by a oath-breaking poisoner.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Fiver, if the Pope gives a dispensation then a marriage between Richard and Elizabeth doesn't qualify as incest.

The case for Richard poisoning Anne, who all evidence suggests he loved dearly, is pretty much bogus.

Her sister previously died with the exact same symptoms and no one ever suggested both of Warwick's daughters were poisoned, and given the sacrifices Richard made so he could marry her in the first place...


Must Richard marry at all? He's not a young man, he does have a designated heir and the loss of Anne and their son clearly grieved him to the point of stating in public that he would not marry again. Given the incredible vulnerability this creates for a king without a (legitimate) son, why would he make such a statement? So he can break his word at some future date?

 

[Sgt Detritus]

How about this lady as a possible foreign bride for Ricky post Bosworth??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunigunde_of_Austria

 

[Fiver]

The case for Richard poisoning Anne, who all evidence suggests he loved dearly, is pretty much bogus.

Her sister previously died with the exact same symptoms and no one ever suggested both of Warwick's daughters were poisoned, and given the sacrifices Richard made so he could marry her in the first place...

I'm well aware that the rumors were bogus. There were a lot of bogus rumors going around, let alone the image created for later generations by Shakespeare's portrayal.

But rumors could be taken very seriously. When Anne's sister ended up dead, there were rumors that she had been poisoned. Her husband George of Clarence believed those rumors and made sure the people he held responsable ended up dead, regardless of how legal that was.

 

[V-J]

He's not a young man,

Well, he's only thirty-two. Now obviously that's 'older' for the times than it would be now, but Richard's dad lived until he was nearly fifty before being executed, so he could potentially have another twenty years or more in him. (AFAIK Richard jnr didn't suffer from any major recurring ailments during his life)

I could see Richard concievably taking up a second wife as an 'act of duty'; a legitimate son would stabilise the succession. It's true that Richard had designated his successor a few times, (John de la Pole and Warwick's (?) son, I think) but implicit in the fact that Richard designated more than one sucessor depending on circumstance is, to me, a sign of how disputed a Yorkist sucession to a childless Richard III could have been. Much better for Richard to pup a legitimate son and clarify the issue.

 

[Fiver]

Found some sources:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A396029

“In 1485, following the deaths of his only legitimate son Edward and his wife Anne Neville, Richard sought to strengthen his hold on the throne and his political ties towards Portugal. Negotiations were under way for his marriage to Joanna, a sister of the King of Portugal, as well as one for his niece Elizabeth to marry his intended's cousin Manuel, Duke of Beja.”

http://www.r3.org/bosworth/texts/legends_princess.html

“Joanna's preference for the religious life, however, had earned her the title "The Holy Princess" in her own country, and she had already turned down offers of marriage with Maximillian, heir to the Holy Roman Empire (1472) and the young king of France, Charles VII (1485), for whom she was rather too old in any case, being one year older than Richard himself.

In August of 1485, the Ricardian negotiations came to a climax, according to Williams. The Portuguese Council of State urged Joanna's brother, King John, to accept Richard's offer. King John tried bullying; his aunt, Philippa, tried persuasion. The response, as Williams explains, was dramatic:

"Joanna retired for a night of prayer and meditation. She had either a vision or a dream of a 'beautiful young man' who told her that Richard had gone from among the living." The next morning she gave her brother a firm answer. If Richard were still alive, she would go to England to marry him. If he were indeed dead, [John] was not to press her again to marry."”

So unless you introduce deviations beyond Richard III winning at Bosworth, 1486 ought to see his marriage to Joanna of Portugal. Richard would be 33, Joanna 34. 1486 also ought to see the marriage of Elizabeth of York to the Duke of Beja, who later became Manuel I of Portugal. With these marriages tying England and Portugal more closely together, how might that have influenced events?

In OTL, Joanna of Portugal died in 1490, which would leave Richard a widower a second time at the age of 37, perhaps with one or two small children, who wouldn’t necessarily be male or survive to adulthood. (Half of Richard’s siblings had died young.) If nothing else, duty would require Richard to marry a third time and produce more possible heirs.

 

[V-J]

That's excellent, Fiver. Really excellent. A strong Portugal-England entente would be a nice idea. Assuming the marriage goes ahead - and I can't really think of any reason why it shouldn't - it'd be an interesting match. I suppose I could do something monumentally evil like kill off Joanna early, which would lessen the political impact and mabye neccessitate a third wife.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Richard would be 33, Joanna 34. 1486 also ought to see the marriage of Elizabeth of York to the Duke of Beja, who later became Manuel I of Portugal. With these marriages tying England and Portugal more closely together, how might that have influenced events?

In OTL, Joanna of Portugal died in 1490, which would leave Richard a widower a second time at the age of 37, perhaps with one or two small children, who wouldn’t necessarily be male or survive to adulthood. (Half of Richard’s siblings had died young.) If nothing else, duty would require Richard to marry a third time and produce more possible heirs.

Interesting, one wonders what the percentage chances of them having any children are from this union ? Of course, one can never know, but its possible that the union would be worryingly childless, though if she DOES die in 1490 (by no means certain since the previous 5 years of her life would have been vastly different) then Richard would still be of an age to marry again and father a family - provided he can find another wife

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Fiver]

If she passes away when she did in OTL, Joanna won't be queen of England for very long so that will lessen the political impact and may necessitate a third marriage for Richard. Anne of Brittany is a bit young, but I think Richard would have tried to support Brittany against France and his sister Margaret of Burgundy likely would have encouraged that. Anne was certainly intelligent and a patron of the arts, but I suspect she might have been somewhat of a handful.

Anne certainly gave got pregnant a lot in OTL - three miscarriages, seven stillborn, three that lived less than a month, a son who died of the measles before he turned five, and two daughters who lived to adulthood.

Richard might still be alive by the time Anne dies in 1514. Richard would be 62, a year older than his great-grandfather died. (His father and grandfather died younger, but not of natural causes.) Regardless, he probably hasn't got much longer to live and unlike Edward I probably won't consider marrying again in his 60's.

If Joanna has produced an heir, he'll be in his mid to late 20's. If Anne has produced an heir, he could be anywhere from his early 20's to a toddler. It's entirely possible that Joanna's son could inherit England while Anne's son inherits Brittany.

If there are no surviving sons, the Earl of Lincoln would still be Richard III's heir as John II. If he predeceases Richard, he'd likely have sons old enough to inherit or his younger brother Edmund might be the new king.

There’s also the Portuguese side to consider. In 1495, the heir to the throne of Portugal dies and Manuel, the Duke of Beja, becomes heir. By that point, Elizabeth of York has probably produced an heir for him. In OTL, Manuel I married Isabella of Asturias, hoping to gain control of Spain through her. In this divergence, trying for the throne of Spain would mean divorcing Elizabeth and would not unite the thrones of Spain and Portugal.