Post-BoB rationalization at Messerschmitt

tomo pauk

MTT dealt with a lot of designs from Battle of Britain until VE day, from unfinnished prototypes to mass-produced aircraft, some better than another. With a healthy dose of hindsight, lets have RLM receive a temporary dose of clarity and decide that MTT is ripe for reduction of aircraft types.

So, apart from in-production Bf 109 and 110, what aircraft type (or two) should Messerschmitt focus now, to make the job tougher for the Allies? Priorities are performance, reliability, producibility, handling, firepower...
 
marathag

marathag

Banned
Stopping the 210 is obvious.
Use whatever influence Willy can muster to get the BMW -018 jet engines debugged and into the 262 Fighter, with Armament to be twin 20mm Gast Guns.
Oh, and 'not a pound for air to ground'
 

Peg Leg Pom

Lascaris said:
Is there any way you can get a functional Bf-109 replacement in service?
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They could possibly get the ME 209 done earlier as a backup for the FW190 if they're not working on the ME321 glider and 323 powered transport.

en.wikipedia.org

Messerschmitt Me 209 (1943) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

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Peg Leg Pom

Lascaris said:
Seems to me the primary issue of Me-209 was engine availability? And even if DB603 was available how much of an improvement over Bf-109G or for that matter Bf-109K was it?
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With green pilots that wide undercarriage is a big plus. The 109 killed a lot of pilots in landing accidents.
 
tonycat77

tonycat77

Banned
Earlier Bf109K rationalization in 1943, Me-262 only,after.

Fw-190 was a better airframe and already developed in 1940, why spend 3 years catching up?
Get the Fw-190D by 1943 or early 1944, with a Ta-152 by mid 1944.
Scrap all piston engine projects aside from the 213, 603, and bmw-801.
Arado-234s, Ju-188s or 4 engined 288s, as medium bombers.
Fw-190F earlier, scrap all Ju-87, he-111, etc.
Guess you'd make the war last at least 6 months more, Air battles would be much more costlier for the allies.
 
Aghasverov

Aghasverov

Peg Leg Pom said:
With green pilots that wide undercarriage is a big plus. The 109 killed a lot of pilots in landing accidents.
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The wide-track landing gear was definitely an improvement over the 109... but it's no guarantee of a safe landing. The radial-engined FW-190's had a notorious tendency to ground loop - I'm not sure but it might have been better with the 190D's and the Ta152, to which the 209 was schematically somewhat similar...
 
Aghasverov

Aghasverov

tonycat77 said:
Earlier Bf109K rationalization in 1943, Me-262 only,after.

Fw-190 was a better airframe and already developed in 1940, why spend 3 years catching up?
Get the Fw-190D by 1943 or early 1944, with a Ta-152 by mid 1944.
Scrap all piston engine projects aside from the 213, 603, and bmw-801.
Arado-234s, Ju-188s or 4 engined 288s, as medium bombers.
Fw-190F earlier, scrap all Ju-87, he-111, etc.
Guess you'd make the war last at least 6 months more, Air battles would be much more costlier for the allies.
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The Jumo 222 could've been a hell of an engine, had they been able to work the bugs out of it...
 
tonycat77

tonycat77

Banned
Aghasverov said:
The Jumo 222 could've been a hell of an engine, had they been able to work the bugs out of it...
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Why wait on amazing if you can get good enough earlier?
A fully developed 603/213 would have the same power output of the original 222 spec and not require the rare materials it used.
 
Aghasverov

Aghasverov

tonycat77 said:
Why wait on amazing if you can get good enough earlier?
A fully developed 603/213 would have the same power output of the original 222 spec and not require the rare materials it used.
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True enough.... The 222 would've been a much better peacetime project, in different world...
The DB 604 might've been interesting too, but it was a bit overweight, and didn't even make it as far into the testing stage as the 222...
 

tomo pauk

marathag said:
Stopping the 210 is obvious.
Use whatever influence Willy can muster to get the BMW -018 jet engines debugged and into the 262 Fighter, with Armament to be twin 20mm Gast Guns.
Oh, and 'not a pound for air to ground'
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Agreed about the 210. The 'air to ground' needs an overhaul at the level of the Luftwaffe anyway.
My favored 262 armament is triple MK 103 set-up, unless Germans come out with something like 'baby MK 103' or 'big MK 108' - those can be also a good fit to the Bf 109 as-is.

Peg Leg Pom said:
I'd leave the giant transports to others and concentrate on fighters.
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Agreed.

Lascaris said:
Is there any way you can get a functional Bf-109 replacement in service?
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Bf 109F is a much improved type and already in production (could use a few tweaks, especially wrt. firepower), Fw 190 is on the way, and for the rest of the war (mid-1943 and on) I'd suggest 1-engined jet fighter.
 

tomo pauk

Jet engine program at MTT:
- No Me 163 as we know it
- Make an 1-engined jet fighter instead. Either an Me-163-lookalike, or a 'German Yak-17' that has Bf 109 as parts donor, or a 'baby P.1101' perhaps?
- A 'proper' 2-engined 2-seat aircraft. Not as big as the Bf110/210/410, but with tricylce U/C, that can be outfitted with jet engines (day fighter and bomber) or with piston engines (night fighter). Size perhaps as the Ki-46, IMO.
 

Horton229

tomo pauk said:
- A 'proper' 2-engined 2-seat aircraft. Not as big as the Bf110/210/410, but with tricylce U/C, that can be outfitted with jet engines (day fighter and bomber) or with piston engines (night fighter). Size perhaps as the Ki-46, IMO.
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Could you get this from further development of the FW187, especially given a better engine than the original 1937 prototype? Say the 1000 hp DB601.
Realise it is hard to know how much scope this airframe had to extend given it was produced in such small numbers, but it had its supporters.
 

tomo pauk

Horton229 said:
Could you get this from further development of the FW187, especially given a better engine than the original 1937 prototype? Say the 1000 hp DB601.
Realise it is hard to know how much scope this airframe had to extend given it was produced in such small numbers, but it had its supporters.
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I'd suggest something like full-metal Ta-154. Specifically for night fighting job, and later to move to jet engine power, predominatly to serve as a fast bomber. In 1941, a 1200-1300 HP in DB 601N and E make sense installed in a Fw 190 IMO.

By late 1940, Fw is making Bf 110s, Fw 200s, some trainers, and is preparing for production of Fw 190 and 189. MTT might have more ability to pull this one since a lot of the designs IMO needs to be either cancelled (Me 210, and the 410 per extension), or the production moved to other companies (Me 323), or will require a good, hard look (next-gen fighter; the Me 163 as-is will not cut it, neither will the Me 309 or 209; Me 262 requires two jet engines per aircraft, and huge amount of fuel to fly).
 

Horton229

Is the Fw187 a better option than the Bf110? If so, FW don't have to make 110s, and more importantly, if the 110 is marginalised earlier, you can avoid the waste on the 210 & 410.
I suppose it depends on the time you are looking at - the Ta154 is a 1943 aircraft. Whilst it is hard (well, impossible) to disagree with getting rid of both x09's and the 163, returning to the OP's question, what are they doing instead of the various disasters we've just canned?
Does it have to be a Messerschmidt project? If so, the only realistic choice appears to be the 262, but with the limitations of first generation jet-engines what does this really get you? You need to find the alloys to make the jets more reliable.
I assume something like that P.08 is too outlandish.
 

tomo pauk

marathag said:
But is pretty much Diesel/Kerosene, so easier to produce by synthetic plants than high octane Gasoline
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It is easier to produce, but it still needs to be produced and transported. Germans were also running out of the diesel as the war was closing to the end.
Me 262 carried about 2500-2600L of fuel internally, or about 3,5 more than what a Bf 109 with a drop tank will be carrying; the 262 was still a short-ranged fighter. An 1-engined jet fighter can do with 1200-1300 L of fuel with the Jumo 004.
 
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