Possible Turkic Migrations Further Into East and/or Southeast Asia

[MarshalBraginsky]

With the PoD around the existence of the Rouran or Gokturk Khaganate, is it possible for a couple of Turkic tribes to migrate further eastwards into OTL East Asia (either parts of Mongolia, Manchuria, China, Korea or Japan) or further southeast into what is now the Malay archipelago? One other question: is it possible to have a Turco-Malay cultural civilization existing within that time period?

 

[Codae]

I can't see horse nomads being interested in traveling o'er jungle and ocean just to live somewhere else that isn't even a steppe.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Even if a Chinese Empire during the era of the Gokturks manages to conquer Turkic territory and forcibly resettles them elsewhere?

 

[Codae]

Even if a Chinese Empire during the era of the Gokturks manages to conquer Turkic territory and forcibly resettles them elsewhere?

I don't think any preindustrial state could or would corral enough Turks to maintain a cultural enclave on the other side of the empire in a completely different climate where there are already thriving populations of natives.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

So in this case the Turkich tribes can only go westwards instead of eastwards.

 

[Malta]

So in this case the Turkich tribes can only go westwards instead of eastwards.

It is a matter of geography. Not much stopping them going westward. Turkic Migrations mostly followed a pattern of trade routes that was the Silk Road. When the Islamic Empires expanded into the region this created an opening for the Ghazi of Turkic origin to go westward and establish themselves and over time invite more of their fellows or create irresitable openings by aiding in the collapse of the Arab/Persian/Greek Empires.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

So the Turkic tribes would find it extremely difficult in inviting fellow Turks in aiding the collapse of say, a Chinese Empire.

 

[Malta]

So the Turkic tribes would find it extremely difficult in inviting fellow Turks in aiding the collapse of say, a Chinese Empire.

Depends how it happens. Does it happen with a Turkic Tribe uniting and going through Gansu to invade? Did this Chinese Empire expand into Central Asia then collapse where and possibly have factions invite them as mercenaries (Sui defeated by Tang Dynasty). Or have An Lushan Succeed in his attempt to take over.

Their entry into China has to go through the Tarim Basin or go ALLLLLL the way around Tibet through the Mongol Tribes through the Gobi Desert and into Manchuria. Going Westward they don't have much stopping them.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Depends how it happens. Does it happen with a Turkic Tribe uniting and going through Gansu to invade? Did this Chinese Empire expand into Central Asia then collapse where and possibly have factions invite them as mercenaries (Sui defeated by Tang Dynasty). Or have An Lushan Succeed in his attempt to take over.

I'm aiming for a Turkic invasion through Gansu or An Lushan gets to take over. Alternatively, we're also aiming for a successful An Lushan Rebellion, right?

 

[Malta]

That is the best bet.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

So if An Lushan succeeds in his rebellion, could there be a power vaccum big enough for his successors to exploit? If the Turks could somehow make inroads into China, their realistic goal could be to settle in the north where the Gobi Desert is located. That or an alliance with the Khitans.

 

[ingemann]

Usual migration is results of different people pushing other people. So you would need migration from the west pushing the east (Scytians, Ostrogoths or Slavs likely). Of course they would likely be pushed into northern China rather than Indochina.

 

[democracy101]

In terms of Manchuria and Korea, the Rouran and Gokturks both formed an alliance with Goguryeo (which occupied Manchuria south of the Songhua River and most of the Korean peninsula at its height) against the state(s) in North China (Northern Wei, Sui, Tang), so I honestly don't see how the situation could be any different given the range for the PoD. Later, Balhae, of which some of its inhabitants were Turks, was also established by the time that the Gokturks were reestablished, so that wouldn't help either.

Both khaganates also occupied most, if not all, of what is now Mongolia, along with other areas in Central Asia, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say there either.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

So in this case the Turks could be pushed eastwards by either the Goths, Slavs or Alans. When you mentioned that the Gokturks formed alliances with the Goguryeo dynasty, would a more systematic settlement of Turkic tribes like the Tanguts occur as well? They could have settled in Mongolia or in Manchuria.

 

[democracy101]

So in this case the Turks could be pushed eastwards by either the Goths, Slavs or Alans. When you mentioned that the Gokturks formed alliances with the Goguryeo dynasty, would a more systematic settlement of Turkic tribes like the Tanguts occur as well? They could have settled in Mongolia or in Manchuria.

As far as I'm aware, the alliances were composed of states which recognized the separate spheres of influence and direct areas of control, so mass migrations would be highly unlikely. Also, both Goguryeo and Balhae were multiethnic, but the former Buyeo/Gojoseon people made up the majority, and for the most part, the separate ethnic groups probably considered themselves to be culturally part of the state they lived in after a few generations, so migrations of tribes would ultimately result in cultural assimilation.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

A Koreanized or Sinicized Turkic civilization will be the result?

 

[democracy101]

A Koreanized or Sinicized Turkic civilization will be the result?

The Turkic tribes would be culturally absorbed into Goguryeo or Balhae to the point where they would identify themselves with and fight for the state that they would settle in, similar to what happened to the Mohe, although their identity is disputed, and I'm assuming that the situation would be similar if they migrated to China Proper as well.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

The Turkic tribes would be culturally absorbed into Goguryeo or Balhae to the point where they would identify themselves with and fight for the state that they would settle in, similar to what happened to the Mohe, although their identity is disputed, and I'm assuming that the situation would be similar if they migrated to China Proper as well.

So with a Koreanized Turkic tribe settling in Goguryeo, could they be an asset in preventing Goguryeo from falling apart? Or if they assimilated into the Balhae kingdom, can they become the spearhead in Balhae's expansion?

 

[democracy101]

So with a Koreanized Turkic tribe settling in Goguryeo, could they be an asset in preventing Goguryeo from falling apart? Or if they assimilated into the Balhae kingdom, can they become the spearhead in Balhae's expansion?

Not to be mean, but these questions are essentially just creating scenarios out of thin air without actually understanding what occurred during those time periods.

Goguryeo fell due to an internal political strife between Yeon Gaesomun's three sons and a combined Silla-Tang alliance, aided by one of the brothers as a defector. The fact that Goguryeo held out for 70 years and six campaigns, until it finally capitulated during the seventh one, suggests that the state initially held firm against Sui and Tang incursions, until the situation deteriorated to the point where downfall was inevitable.

On the other hand, Balhae was able to expand as much as it did because it was able to regather the former inhabitants of Goguryeo, along with some Khitan and Turkic tribes, within a few decades, and was more of a confederation that politically functioned as an empire. Attempting to rapidly expand to the west would not only result in stiff resistance from the Khitan, but would also eventually turn into a logistical and administrative nightmare due to the large areas involved.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

I understand. It's just that I wanted to experiment with the idea of a Turkic presence in East Asia and the main requirement for that has to be a push from the west and into the east. If I can find a good PoD for a Turkic shift eastwards, then I can start from there. Now the only thing I know about nomadic migration is why they always push westwards.