MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Is it possible that the Huguenots could have established a state of their own in Europe during the 30YW?
Possible Separate Huguenot State in Europe
- Thread starter MarshalBraginsky
- Start date
No.
Too dispersed, too politically divided (each militant group being on its own, and sometimes having divergent interests with others), too small (you didn't have great zones of protestant majority, even in Bearn) and most of all, not a sense of that much distinct indentity than catholic French.
You probably noticed that Louis XIII and Richelieu directly intervened in Germany only after the last protestant troubles were crushed. Even the limited autonomy of an handful places in France wasn't something they wanted to last.
During that Wars of Rohan, the royal armies had to fight adversaries motivated both by religious but as well political motives more "localists" than in the previous wars.
Even if the project of a real Hugenot state was to form, it would be crushed in the crib, as the OTL wars prooved that they had little to no room for that.
Too dispersed, too politically divided (each militant group being on its own, and sometimes having divergent interests with others), too small (you didn't have great zones of protestant majority, even in Bearn) and most of all, not a sense of that much distinct indentity than catholic French.
You probably noticed that Louis XIII and Richelieu directly intervened in Germany only after the last protestant troubles were crushed. Even the limited autonomy of an handful places in France wasn't something they wanted to last.
During that Wars of Rohan, the royal armies had to fight adversaries motivated both by religious but as well political motives more "localists" than in the previous wars.
Even if the project of a real Hugenot state was to form, it would be crushed in the crib, as the OTL wars prooved that they had little to no room for that.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Although there were several threads that discuss about the Huguenots being sent as colonists to French colonies though, like an example about Huguenots being sent to New France.
I ran into several of these and they generally
- Hugely oversize the Hugenot population in the XVIIIth. You maybe had more than these 2 millions before, to be honest, but there wasn't a migration motivation either.
or overlook that
- New France wasn't open to Protestant settlement : while it was officially forbidden in the late 1620's; it was never easy to them settle there to begin with. Maybe a little more than 320 families managed that (without, admittedly, counting crypto-Protestants)
- Protestants could not want to emigrate in french colonies.
Emigration was mostly existant on borders with protestant countries (essentially Netherlands, Swiss, and german states) and while a ten of the population definitely moved, it let 90% of converted (mostly crypto-protestants, returning to an open cult after the 20/30's)
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
That explains why the Huguenot influence in Prussia was huge: a Huguenot emigre community was probably responsible for the shaping of the Prussian Army.
Well, Frederic-William did guest them following an organisation policy. If I remember well, Hugenots represented at this point a bit less than half of Berlin population (10 000 hab. roughly in my manual).
Giving we're talking of a mainly "elite" emigration, it's no wonder they had an important role in contemporary Prussia.
Fearless Leader
Donor
Though, arguably if there was a more friendly, pro-Protestant colonial administration, wouldn't more of them want to make the trip?
What about this scenario?
1542: Jean-Francois Roberval, current colonial governor of Quebec, (A Huguenot) decides to make alliances with nearby Native American tribes (Huron, Algonquin, Mohawk?) against the St. Lawrence Iroquoians. They succeed and largely manage to solve the security problems plaguing the infant colony.
-Once secured, the colony attracts enough Protestants to grow slowly. Suitable administrators are found to keep it up and though there's a small Catholic minority, by and large the settlers are Protestants who begin to see Quebec much like OTL's Puritans saw America. Other colonies are founded further south, but Quebec attracts most of the Huguenot attention due to it's potential as a refuge.
-As the French wars of religion progress, Quebec begins to siphon off more and more of the Protestant emigration that occurred in OTL. With a suitable refuge and a chance to build "A New France" overseas, I think Huguenot ideology would change rather substantively. Given the right people in charge I could see thousands making the trip over to Quebec, perhaps even breaking away from France if things get bad enough.
Thoughts?
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Would Quebec become the Protestant French version of the Draka though? Could this French colony actually become the safe haven for the Protestant population that is fleeing from a potential Catholic dominated Europe though?
The catch is, a more Protestant friendly colonial administration would mean a more Protestant friendly royal power.
Contrary to British colonies, there was no self-rule to speak of.
Of course, you see the problem : if there's a more friendly power in France, there's no real motivation to emigrate in Americas either.
If it helps.
1) The security wasn't just due to external issues but as well inner ones. After all, we're talking of a mostly penal colony : several settlers are thieves, murderers, insanes.
Frankly, I saw better colonisation stuff.
2) Roberval isn't just a protestant (hugenot as a word would appear later), but a man of the king, the latter helping to concede to the other (critically after the Affaire des Placards).
But when it would come to create a protestant colony, far from royal power...I don't think that's gonna pass. (Even French colonial companies were at least partially owned by the power and/or were eventually dissolved). Don't forget that all the money, all the means (up to fleet) came from François, and not his own pocket.
And with a small colony, made partially of unwilling settlers, Roberval doesn't have a chance, against a pissed king, critically after he just managed to came back in court.
(It's not impossible that this may have meant he converted back to Catholicism meanwhile. Not only there was a real backleash, but the colonial nomination included
these lines "build churchs and temples for the communication of our holy catholic faith [...] and growth of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church whom we are the first child.
After all Protestant courtiers often changed faith.
Something that may not be the wisest stuff to attrack protestants that already had a bad opinion on how he ruled his colony.
3) It doesn't help Canada already had a bad reputation. "False as a Canadian diamond" was an expression after Cartier's trips, and the general deception that followed.
Furthermore, you may overlook a point. French Wars of Religious where about religion (obviously) but as well on politics, each side (the three of them) having roots on Europe.
That and the fact royal power often played the balance (supporting Catholics once, then giving an hand to Protestant when it was necessary, etc.).
Contrary of England where the crisis was political because it was religious; it was essentially a civil war in France where emigrating would have meant accepting defeat.
Driftless
Donor
How implausible would it have been for French Hugenots to emigrate in large numbers to a politically protestant colony of Britain or the Netherlands?
Thinking along the lines of the French - good bye, good riddance?
For the British & Dutch - a collection of warm bodies not in love with the French (or likely Spanish) government.
It didn't happen OTL, but what changes would have been needed for such an event to occur?
Thinking along the lines of the French - good bye, good riddance?
For the British & Dutch - a collection of warm bodies not in love with the French (or likely Spanish) government.
It didn't happen OTL, but what changes would have been needed for such an event to occur?
Depends on your definition of large numbers.
Netherlands seems the easier way, giving it was the main region of long-term emigration IOTL. If for some reason Dutch rulers decide that Hugenots must emigrate en masse to their colonies (possibly giving money for that), you may have say between 5 to 10, 000 settlers. (as in between 10 and 20%)
British North America itself was quite a target for French Protestants IOTL., more coming first from England and Netherlands. It's hard to have clear numbers, but it was obviously more limited than for both of these.
If England have a similar policy than depicted above (I let to someone else the reason for) you'd have probably similar numbers.
Problems are
1) Money. Not anyone could allow to emigrate, and generally not that far.
2) Interdiction. Remember, emigrating was forbidden, and this was more and more enforced.
3) Identity. Many Protestants just felt like emigrating because they identified themselves as French, and Louis XIV as misguided but not illegitim as a king.
Then historical ten percent of migrants are always quite something : you could push to the edge of plausibility up to one quarter, but it would represent something as 500 000 whom only a small part would emigrate directly or undirectly to extra-european colonies. (again, if we go the 10/20% rules, and that's assuming more protestants go in England and Netherland than IOTL proportionally than in Germany, Swiss or Scandinavia : 50 000/100 000)
Well, persecutions followed with the same focus after Louis XIV's death (IOTL, after his death it became less regular up to having crypto-protestant having almost public cults); an actual policy of immigration in England and Netherlands followed by policy of settlements
Both being hard to overcome I think. Post-Louis XIV had other focus, more pressing and far less harming diplomatically; and I'm not sure Netherlands or England would have enough money to give away in resettlement.
Well, there's room for larger settlement, indeed. Not much by more Huguenots emigrating, than more Huguenots settling : most of the historical emigration there was temporary (essentially going to Germany, or even going back in France).
A bit more like political refugees if you prefer.
If you manage to make it so less temporary, instead of some 20 000, you could end with more than 60 000. At the cost of Germany, mostly, but while I don't know how much that would represent for Swiss demographics, it could make Huguenots more influents in the country?
What could help in replacing the population of Switzerland with Huguenots would be a severe depopulation beforehand - a bit like what happened in the Germanies during the Thirty Years War. So if you want a Huguenot Switzerland (or at least Romandie), you must first kill a lot of Swiss. The usual suspects are bad weather, epidemics, and the Habsburgs. And the wolves.
But even then, it would not be a single state: unifying these small mountains valleys is hard, especially where there is a tradition of autonomy, and the Huguenot themselves are quite defiant vis-a-vis central government.
About colonial emigration: Québec is out. But Rio de Janeiro / Genèbre (France Antarctique) is not. And the weather is better, so why would they hesitate
The key here is naval support against the Portuguese, and the obvious candidates for this are the Dutch. So either the Portuguese are a bit more hamstrung by the Dutch during the OTL wars, or some Huguenot refugees have friends in the Netherlands who ferry them over to Brazil, just to be a pain in the Portugueses' rear end.MarshalBraginsky
Banned
So what we might be looking at is some sort of French Huguenot country in South America, practically where French Guyana might be located?
On the other hand, a French Huguenot state could also be established in what is now Belgium since it was a part of the Netherlands at one point.
On the other hand, a French Huguenot state could also be established in what is now Belgium since it was a part of the Netherlands at one point.
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South America is definitely out. The attempts IOTL always ended badly : Spain or Portugal (France Antarctique : too close of God, far too close of Spain) getting rid of Protestant rivals, usual disputes, no real backing in France.
The closer thing I could see, would be a Huguenot settlement in New England or New Netherlands, with a living communauty maybe up to nowadays, similar to Pennsylvanian Germans.
As for Belgium, I'd question the logic of such massive migration. We're talking of Protestants, that for escaping persecutions, defy the interdiction of emigration, only to settle on Spanish Netherlands while Spain was a Catholic, pro-French european state?
The closer thing I could see, would be a Huguenot settlement in New England or New Netherlands, with a living communauty maybe up to nowadays, similar to Pennsylvanian Germans.
As for Belgium, I'd question the logic of such massive migration. We're talking of Protestants, that for escaping persecutions, defy the interdiction of emigration, only to settle on Spanish Netherlands while Spain was a Catholic, pro-French european state?
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
You're right in that matter. Are Huguenots also well skilled in finance too though?
Huguenot, or rather Religionnaire, is not a social denomination, but a religious one*. Basically, both Cevenol peasant and Bordelais merchant were Huguenots.
IOTL, the migrants were often more part of the elite (not only social, but as well religious) or borderers rather than the mass of french Protestant population, as they had more opportunities and means to leave. (Again, emigration was forbidden, and tentatives to leave harshly punished, up to death punishment).
The main problem there is the royal arbitrary on Protestants. Would they try to organize either to emigrate or to form a lobby (notwithstanding social, political or religious differences) even before 1685, it would backlash.
Everything they did that wasn't in the sense of conversion, was considered as a proof of the duplicity of the RPR, and therefore pointing the need of royal action.
The "better" alternative, as supported by the Grand Dauphin, was to let RPR dies out "quietly", meaning still under catholic royal control (basically a status quo, based on the Edit d'Ales).
* Wikipedia, for some reason, use "ethno-religious". I still have to figure out why, giving they merged quickly with other populations, including Catholics
(I think you meant too far from God, too close to Portugal)
Except when it is not (Guyane). Interestingly, the Dutch also grabbed nearby Suriname.
This is why I am suggesting that Dutch, not French, backing is just what is needed to make this colony successful. Of course, the name would not be “France Antarctique” or ”France Équinoxiale”. But the Dutch could use the Huguenots as a way to keep the Portuguese distracted during the war, and when the dust settles, a few Huguenots outposts survive in some remote parts of Brazil.