Possible pseudo-scientific ideas of "English Nazism"?

Hmmm, a sort of Hybrid Vigour Eugenicism and probably combined with a cultural supremacist attitude.
Though one wonders what would happen to the poor here :eek:

Might they take this further, and consider the absorbtion of other ethnicities, be they the Zulus, the Tamils or whoever, to add to British vigour? As long as everybody remains culturally British, of course.
 
Might they take this further, and consider the absorbtion of other ethnicities, be they the Zulus, the Tamils or whoever, to add to British vigour? As long as everybody remains culturally British, of course.

So everyone has to be britified? I don`t think that they accept black or brown people
 
Might they take this further, and consider the absorbtion of other ethnicities, be they the Zulus, the Tamils or whoever, to add to British vigour? As long as everybody remains culturally British, of course.

It could go that way. But would start very stringently and perhaps orginating from the Raj.

So everyone has to be britified? I don`t think that they accept black or brown people

I assume you're meaning in TTL scenario that would be unlikely they would accept nonwhites? Otherwise out of context that's a harsh accusation against my fellow British!

What I'm expecting with hybrid vigour being adopted is some Anglo-Indians held up as an example. "Racially" if not culturally,
 
I assume you're meaning in TTL scenario that would be unlikely they would accept nonwhites? Otherwise out of context that's a harsh accusation against my fellow British!

I'm gonna take it as meaning these Anglo-Nazis, rather than against our fine nation as it is. Well, it's an alright nation.

What I'm expecting with hybrid vigour being adopted is some Anglo-Indians held up as an example. "Racially" if not culturally,

Yeah, I could see culturally British Anglo-Indians and South African Coloureds being genetically 'stronger' etc.
 
It could go that way. But would start very stringently and perhaps orginating from the Raj.



I assume you're meaning in TTL scenario that would be unlikely they would accept nonwhites? Otherwise out of context that's a harsh accusation against my fellow British!

What I'm expecting with hybrid vigour being adopted is some Anglo-Indians held up as an example. "Racially" if not culturally,
Well I don't think the British National Socialist party will accept blacks and non-whites as equal to brits. They could accept some like the Zulus, Massai and Sikhs as warrior races and noble savages and some like the australian aboriginis get the genocide treatment
 
Anglo-Israel Identity: Being PROOF of the Israelitish Ancestry of the British Race and the Davidic Descent of the Royal Family.


This sort of thing would be included: http://anglish.wikia.com/wiki/Headside


Also the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and organizations of that nature could be a Thule Society analogue.
 
I could definitely see a movement like this using a lot of rhetoric and symbolism based on Arthur, Camelot, the Knights of the Round Table, the Holy Grail, etc. (Never mind that Arthur was a Celt who fought the Anglo-Saxons.)

British Israelism would also naturally lead them to adopt the Khazar theory or some equivalent that says that the Jews aren't really the descendants of the biblical Jews, which would both allow the British to have sole claim to being the chosen people and tie in nicely with the anti-Semitism that such a movement would inevitably be filled with.

Of course the various Celtic peoples (especially the Irish) would be a natural target for pseudo-scientific racism and discrimination, and if there's going to be a home-grown fascist genocide in Britain they would certainly be on the list of targets, as would Jews, Roma and Travellers, anyone non-white (other than martial races being kept for the service of the Empire?), etc. For fun, here's a quote from Benjamin Disraeli: ""The Irish hate our order, our civilization, our enterprising industry, our pure religion. This wild, reckless, indolent, uncertain and superstitious race have no sympathy with the English character. Their ideal of human felicity is an alternation of clannish broils and coarse idolatry. Their history describes an unbroken circle of bigotry and blood."
 
Care to elaborate?

According to some early 20th century British nationalists Noah, after creating the Great Pyramids (they were really into pyramidology) came to Britain, he may or may not have created Stonehenge (memory fuzzy) and the English language was created or preserved there for future generations.

Perhaps this is veering going more mystical than pseudo-scientific for your purposes though.
 
According to some early 20th century British nationalists Noah, after creating the Great Pyramids (they were really into pyramidology) came to Britain, he may or may not have created Stonehenge (memory fuzzy) and the English language was created or preserved there for future generations.

Perhaps this is veering going more mystical than pseudo-scientific for your purposes though.

According to one theory many of the events of the Old Testament actually took place in Britain, which was the real location of the 'Egypt' and 'Babylon' mentioned (and maybe even of Homeric [& early-Classical?] Greece, too? I forget...), but then the climate here changed for the worse -- due to Earth's axis of rotation shifting, I think they said -- which caused a collapse of civilization here... and then the envious Romans, having conquered Britain, decided to re-locate a lot of the ancient monuments to the Middle East (and Greece?) instead...

(Yes, seriously; one of author Daphne du Maurier's close relatives promoted this theory IOTL!)

EDIT: with Britain as the original real location of OT 'Israel'/'Judah' too, of course maybe even through the career of Jesus...
 
Last edited:
I don't see where this English Naziism would come from. England has no Volkisch Movement

Oh yes it did, look up the Kibbo Kift, who became the Green Shirts (not fascist or Communist but elitist), the Order of Woodcraft Chivalry, and indeed the English Array/English Mistery. Also, the Forest Schools and the figure of Rolf Gardiner. I have a signed copy of his book England Herself, must get around to reading it one day. Gardiner made extensive contacts with the Volkisch groups.

I can't see Gardiner being an English Fuhrer but the Kibbo Kift's founder John Hargrave's ego is another question.

There is also a question about the Woodcraft Folk who are still around and allied to the Co-operative Party wing of the Labour Party. In their early days, after splitting from the Kibbo Kift, some members wanted them to become the youth wing of the British Union of Fascists. The motion was defeated, but if it hadn't been who knows what would have happened.
 
Last edited:
British Israelism would certainly have played the part that the Teutonic Knights did in Nazi propaganda. It was very strong, but strongest in its Anglo-American form. Herbert W Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God was specifically British Israelite in spite of being American. British Israelism still exists, there is now even a British Mormon splinter group following a new Book received by its founder.

I think that the main ideological motive would have been Protestantism. The idea that the Anglo-Saxons "rescued" the Christian religion after the legions left was common in the way history was taught even when I was at a Public School.

What could have given rise to a British Nazism, though, would have had to be some collapse of Empire. If India had successfully rebelled in thew 1930s, for example. Quite simply, the idea of "a superior people betrayed" central to Nazism was pretty hard to graft onto an Empire at its height.

Of course, if Britain had lost WWI that would be another matter....
 
Oh yes it did, look up the Kibbo Kift, who became the Green Shirts (not fascist or Communist but elitist), the Order of Woodcraft Chivalry, and indeed the English Array/English Mistery. Also, the Forest Schools and the figure of Rolf Gardiner. I have a signed copy of his book England Herself, must get around to reading it one day. Gardiner made extensive contacts with the Volkisch groups.

I can't see Gardiner being an English Fuhrer but the Kibbo Kift's founder John Hargrave's ego is another question.

There is also a question about the Woodcraft Folk who are still around and allied to the Co-operative Party wing of the Labour Party. In their early days, after splitting from the Kibbo Kift, some members wanted them to become the youth wing of the British Union of Fascists. The motion was defeated, but if it hadn't been who knows what would have happened.

You seem to know something about Hargrave, can you explain to me what happened to his pacifism? He founded the Kibbo Kift as a peaceful alternative to the Scouts after all.

Although the Greenshirts were not above using street violence that doesn't necessarily mean he abandoned pacifism at the international level of course. So did he?
 
!

I think the pacifism gave way to realism about fascists - where the street fighting took place it was largely defensive. The blackshirts ransacked the greenshirt Liverpool HQ for example.

What transformed Hagrave from a pacifist scout to a political figure was his conversion to Social Credit. One of the last greenshirt actions was in 1940 when a chap dubbed by the press "the Robin Hood of Downing Street" fired an arrow into the open door of 10 Downing Street. The arrow had three slogans carved into it:

"End Hitlerism"
"End Communism"
"Pay the social dividend now"

By then Hargrave had invented the "moveable map", which was a vital tool for the RAF and later on, Concorde, but he never saw a penny for it. He migrated to Canada, where a Social Credit Party had risen to power in two provinces.

For more see http://www.kibbokift.org/ - it will convince that there was a Volkische movement in the UK, and the second photo here:

http://www.kibbokift.org/whitefox.html

is creepy, to put it simply!
 
Of course, Hargrave didn't harbour any pseudo-scientific ideas, but Social Credit seems like pseudo-economics. It's one of those things that looks unarguably right but that you instinctively feel must be wrong.

It's based on the idea that in business the sum total of all wages, dividends and bank loan payments (plus other expenses) never meets the purchase price of the goods or services provided. The difference must therefore be paid to the people as a "social dividend". To avoid inflation a "scientific price" must be imposed, and we all live happily ever after.

Note that the Canadian provinces that elected Social Credit provincial governments were always stopped from implementing SC-specific policies by central government.
 
Perhaps they would believe that England was ruled by barbarians (the Celts and the Saxons) and "wretched foreigners" (the Romans) until the Normans conquered England and "civilized it." Due to this France would be rightfully under English rule. The Welsh and Scots would be similar to the Poles or Czechs; some of them being able to be "Anglicized" and some having to be sterilized or otherwise forcefully rendered extinct. I imagine that they would want to reconquer Ireland and that the Irish Catholics would be like the Jews. They might still have a idea that is analogous to Lebensraum but with colonies such as India and Africa being forcefully Anglicized with the natives enslaved and forced to live on reservations.

If that POD doesn't make my great-great-grampas great-great-great-times-twentieth-cousin a war criminal, I don't know what will.
 
Top