Possible operators of the F-111
- Thread starter Pangur
- Start date
I went that road to signify the variants that would be sold to others. I have also noted that the Saudi and Iranian Varks are not as advanced as the Israeli ones - that's to not have them have an epic meltdown. I would suspect that the Iranian units would have a hard time flying after about 1995, just because of the parts embargo, same as with their Tomcats. In this world, Iran might take the Russian offer to re-engine all of their F-14 and F-111 aircraft. I'm envisioning the Israeli F-111s being used for the first time in the Yom Kippur War, with them seeing lots of use blasting Syrian and Egyptian facilities though probably with a bunch falling victim to the SA-6s used the Arabs. I would also suspect that once the Israelis know just how good they are, that they become the backbone of Israel's strike ability with their air force, and they get used in the operations against Osirak and the PLO Headquarters, among others.
South Africa's bugbear with its aviation industry was electronics, their local fighter projects were slow because of that more than anything. They could operate the F-111, but after 1994, when they don't have to worry about deterrence against outside threats, why would they? Post-apartheid South Africa has better things to spend their money on. I just don't see the SAAF ever operating the Vark, because during apartheid getting the airplanes would be hard (and the SAAF mostly used European equipment in any case) and maintaining them harder still, and after apartheid there isn't the need.
F-111A: 291 (including 17 prototypes) Built by General Dynamics in 1967-72. 50 aircraft converted to EF-111A Raven standards between 1975 and 1981, 17 sold to Australia and converted to F-111C standard in 1983-85. 133 aircraft produced to F-111IR/F-111IS (80 Iran, 48 Israel, 5 prototypes) standards in 1970-72. Retired from USAF in 1991. 22 Israeli aircraft rebuilt to F-111FI standards in 1988-90. Last Israeli F-111IS retired in 2001, unknown number of Iranian F-111IR variants remain in service.
F-111B: Seven initial test versions produced between 1964 and 1969. Program sold to Canada in 1972. 126 CF-111Bs produced by Canadair between 1974 and 1981. 56 CF-111H (Merlin FGR.1 in RAF service) built by Bristol Aerospace (4 CF-111Hs were built by Canadair) between 1975 and 1979. All 86 F-111J produced between 1975 and 1980, with four made by General Dynamics and the other 82 made by Mitsubishi. All RAF CF-111Hs upgraded to CF-111K (Merlin FGR.2) standards between 1988 and 1991. All JASDF F-111J upgraded F-111J Kai standards in 1987-89. All CF-111B re-engined with RR Orenda Fraser engines in 1988-92. 85 CF-111B, 41 CF-111K and 62 F-111J Kai remain in service as of 2012.
F-111C: 24 Originally built by General Dynamics in 1969-71, delivered to RAAF in 1971. 17 F-111As converted to F-111C standard by Government Aircraft Factories in 1983-85. All RAAF F-111s Re-engined with General Electric F110 engines in 1995-99. 33 F-111C Aardvarks remain in service with the RAAF as of 2012.
F-111D: 96 built by General Dynamics in 1970-73. All served in the USAF, though operational capability was not reached until 1975 because of avionics problems. All retired in 1991-92.
F-111E: 94 built by General Dynamics in 1969-71. All served in the USAF, most of these based out of bases in UK, France and Germany. All retired by the USAF in 1995-96.
F-111F: 248 built by General Dynamics in 1972-80. 171 built for the USAF, with 34 USAF airframes transferred to Israel in 1973-74 and 24 sold to Germany in 1976-77. 32 delivered to Argentina in 1975-77, 45 delivered to Saudi Arabia in 1978-80. 23 Luftwaffe aircraft re-engined in 1997-99. As of 2012, 14 F-111F remain in service with the USAF, 22 F-111F with the Luftwaffe, 31 F-111FI with the Israeli AF, 26 F-111SA with the RSAF and 14 F-111AR with the Argentine AF.
FB-111A/F-111G: 112 built by General Dynamics between 1969-72. All nits delivered originally delivered to USAF, 27 sold to RAAF and converted to F-111L standard in 1989-91. The USAF Strategic Air Command retired the FB-111A in 1985, and all FB-111As were converted to F-111G standard in 1985-88. 22 RAAF units were re-engined and life-extended in 1995-99. USAF retired the F-111G in 2000, 19 F-111L remain in RAAF service as of 2012.
EF-111A: 50 Converted from F-111A by Grumman in 1975-81. All delivered to USAF, 8 sold to RAAF in EF-111AS form in 1989-91. EF-111AS re-engined and life-extended in 1995-99. USAF EF-111As were rebuilt by Northrop Grumman in 1996-97 to extend their lives. 38 USAF EF-111As and 8 RAAF EF-111AS remain in service as of 2012.
F-111N: 5 rebuilt from F-111IS prototypes by General Dynamics in 1978, 31 built by AIDC in Taiwan in 1979-82. All re-engined with F-110 engines in 1996-99. 32 F-111N remained in Taiwanese AF service as of 2012.
F-111R: Developed by General Dynamics as alternative to F-15 Strike Eagle, but not taken up, but proposed again in 1998. Approved by USAF in 2001 as a rebuild program for USAF F-111F models, 76 have been converted as of 2012, with 14 more to go. New-build versions approved in 2005, with 54 new-build airframes approved, first produced in 2007. Final example expected to be delivered in 2013. Germany, Japan and Australia have also proposed to rebuild their F-111 fleets.
As for 2012, the total F-111 count in operational service is:
United States Air Force: 123 F-111R, 14 F-111F, 38 EF-111A
Royal Air Force: 41 CF-111K
Royal Australian Air Force: 33 F-111C, 19 F-111G, 8 EF-111SA
Royal Canadian Air Force: 85 CF-111BE
Japanese Air Self-Defense Force: 62 F-111J Kai
Luftwaffe: 22 F-111FE
Israeli Air Force: 31 F-111FI
Royal Saudi Air Force: 26 F-111SA
Argentine Air Force: 14 F-111AR
Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force: Unknown F-111IR, expected to no more than 15
It should be noted that several of the main users aim to replace their F-111s. Canada and the United Kingdom have asked to purchase the F-22 Raptor for interceptor and air superiority duties. Australia, Japan and Germany plan on keeping their F-111s from some time to come, and all three have been offered the F-111R rebuild program.
All of the above nations except for Iran and Japan used their F-111s in the Gulf War, in the case of the Luftwaffe pulling off its longest attack mission ever, flying from Neuberg an der Donau in Bavaria to strike targets around Basra in Irag on January 19, 1991, and doing so again several times during the war, supported by their tankers and those of the Luftwaffe. Canada set a record for the longest tactical mission ever, flying a strike mission against Rwanda militia positions on July 15, 1994, from CFB Gander, refueling three times in each direction, with tankers operating from the Azores, Akrotiri and Nairobi, where eight CF-111BEs bombed and destroyed the RTLM radio station and Rwandan Army headquarters in Kigali, Rwanda, in support of the Canadian intervention force in Rwanda - to this day, the "Messiah's Trident" missions remain the longest missions ever by tactical fighters and the longest fighter missions ever by the Royal Canadian Air Force. Australia's F-111C and F-111G aircraft struck Indonesian positions in support of East Timor's independence when Indonesia attempted to take it back in 1999, and four RAAF F-111Gs destroyed a Jemaah Islamiah terrorist training camp on the island of Borneo in the aftermath of the Bali bombing in January 2003. Argentina's F-111ARs were widely used by the Argentines in their war against the UK for control of the Falkland Islands in 1982, with them suffering 14 shot down by RN fighters but destroying three Royal Navy vessels and damaging five more in the process, as well as providing air support in considerable amounts to Argentina's troops in the Falklands. Into the 21st Century, the F-111's incredible speed and ability to fly low combined with its long range have made it a powerful strike weapons, a fact proven in numerous wars and interventions from Vietnam to Libya.
I take it the USAF operators of the Vark now in this TL are ANG and/or AFRES, leaving the F-15E to the active duty Air Force? One thing that the AF wanted as part of a proposed EF-111 upgrade in the '90s (pre-drawdown) was HARM missile capability, along with self-defense AIM-9s; the EF-111 Spark Vark's encounter with an Iraqi Mirage F-1 on the first night of ODS did raise eyebrows. The Vark manuvered the F-1 into the ground, but instead of getting a manuver kill, a nearby F-15 driver who'd already splashed a Mirage-and rolling in on this one-got the kill.
Ming777
Monthly Donor
I believe you had Canada purchase Iran's Tomcat fleet, allowing the Canuck varks to go to Europe or be used for strike duties, with the Tomcats being used for defending Canadian Airspace.
TheMann, wow!
My biggest problem is the 96 and 94 D and E models. I think one of the biggest problems with the F111 was the 4 different models, each with a different avionics, engine and intake spec. Once it was realised that there were problems with these things GD should have gone back to the drawing board and come back with a definitive spec.
My biggest problem is the 96 and 94 D and E models. I think one of the biggest problems with the F111 was the 4 different models, each with a different avionics, engine and intake spec. Once it was realised that there were problems with these things GD should have gone back to the drawing board and come back with a definitive spec.
Pangur
Donor
One hell of an update !
Not sure about the French bit!
Had hoped to have more Canadian builds
Would it be possible for the combined Canadian/British to have come up with an alternative to the F-22
There is every chance of those missions having been planned
I would have expected the F-111's to have done far more damage than that including an sunk aircraft carrier
I wonder what the F-111 Vark could have be come, the F-211 new engines etc?
As an aside how about a F-111P for Pakistan?
Fair enough - I was going to suggest an Israelie electronics outfit but that seemed a bit done to death, French maybe? Having said that your right, just who are they going to use them against unless it was anti pirate survaliance.
Not sure about the French bit!
Had hoped to have more Canadian builds
Would it be possible for the combined Canadian/British to have come up with an alternative to the F-22
There is every chance of those missions having been planned
I would have expected the F-111's to have done far more damage than that including an sunk aircraft carrier
I wonder what the F-111 Vark could have be come, the F-211 new engines etc?
As an aside how about a F-111P for Pakistan?
I agree, but lets say the communist threat increased to where Buccanners could not counter it (maybe Mig 23s, Mig 29s in Angola backed by SA-8s and other advanced missiles), the USA would then allow the South Africans to purchase any equipment they needed to maintain a counter balance.
All the US would ask for in return is cash for the planes and accelerated, well publicized but still token apartheid changes. In short, communist paranoia would trump revulsion of apartheid easily.
South Africa would have a far better chance of flying the F-111 than Pakistan.
Though the Israelis would accept, but not welcome Iranian F-111s (airforce of dubious competency, little domestic engineering / maintenance ability), they would hit the roof over the F-111s being provided to Pakistan (competent airforce, good domestic engineering / maintenance ability and possessing nuclear weapons).
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Cook
Banned
The pre-revolutionary Iranian air force had a very good reputation and the Israeli’s would have been well aware of their capabilities since they exchanged military intelligence with them. The Iranian’s were able to keep their fleet of F-4 Phantoms, F-5 tiger IIs and at least some of their F-14 Tomcats operational for the eight years of the Iran-Iraq war (and some are still flying there) while being almost entirely cut off from the American manufacturers of spare parts, that argues strongly for a reasonable competent maintenance capability even after the revolution.
That is because hundreds of U.S, mechanics and technicians were maintaining U.S. aircraft purchases. I dont think the Tomcats ever saw combat. Rather, selected examples were flown occasionally during parades or celebrations.
In summary, the Iranians had the ability to fly aircraft and to make limited use of the capabilities, the Pakistanis had the ability to truly use them at the level they were capable of performing. Thus a plane that would be a prestige purchase for the Iranians, would be a lethal force mutliplier Pakistani hands. Likewise, Fencers in Libyan hands would be an annoyance, Fencers in Cuban hands would be totally different.
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Check Tom Cooper's book from Osprey on the Iranian F-14 force: they certainly did see combat: 130+ kills, and at least two aces (one with 9 confirmed and three probables).
NothingNow
Banned
Maybe. The US might not want to risk further escalation of the Border wars, since the Soviets would probably start sending even more modern systems, and it would look pretty bad on the homefront.
The Soviets might possibly even start sending SA-19s and limited numbers of Su-27SBs and maybe some MiG-25PDS (since they're being replaced with MiG-31s anyway, but might need an overhaul to carry Vympel R-23/AA-7 AAMs, as I doubt that stocks of AA-6 would be plentiful in Angola.)
That's bollocks. During the Gulf War of 1980-88, the Iranian Air Force fought hard and, on the whole, successfully against the Iraqi's. The F-14's and F-4's got a lot of kills in that period. Honestly, I do wish people paid a little more attention to that conflict.
You're correct in that US technicians were doing that maintenance, and following the 1979 revolution they departed en masse and locked the depots to prevent the Iranians using the supplies inside. However once the Iranians demonstrated that they could break the encryption on the stores - by doing so on one of them - the US made the best of it and sold them the contents. Saying that the Iranians were incapable of maintaining them is doing their air and ground crews a considerable disservice.
Both are used by the Active Duty air Force until the early 2000s, and the F-111R variant is returning the type to active service. All F-111s from the C variant on here have the ability to carry two AIM-9 Sidewinders for self-defense, and I figure that the Spark Vark in this world would have likely been equipped to carry the HARM right from the start, as it was entering service as the airplane was.
And that's the case here, too. But the Canuck Varks won't all be in Europe, especially after the end of the Cold War and everyone start drawing down their European stationed forces. Here, some of the ones that we at home were assigned to the job of backing up Canada's little intervention in Rwanda, to send a couple messages, one to the world's air forces (Yes, we CAN hit somebody halfway around the world without the Americans' help) and the second to the Rwandans (Keep it up, and we'll blow all of you to hell). I probably shouldn't have pout up that bit about re-engining F-14s, then. My bad.
The delivery schedule was too much for that, and more to the point, all of the D and E models were built in such a way that they could be converted to F-111F spec, the USAF just never bothered, as in OTL.
Thank you.
If it's being done in apartheid era, the people doing to work on SAAF F-111s would be either Israel or Taiwan, as the three of them stuck together quite a lot at the time, all three having no real friends in the area and having co-operated on a lot of their weapons programs. But I just don't think that the SAAF would ever be using the F-111. For the money, and if they needed more deep strike ability, they'd reverse-engineer the Buccaneer and make some more of them, or push forward the Atlas Cheetah and/or Carver projects.
Just for basing, not French F-111s. If they wanted such a plane, they could have turned up the Mirage IV for that role very easily.
The problem there is how many people need a dedicated interceptor? All of those countries have a need for strike aircraft, but not so many need good interceptors who don't already have them.
Possible but unlikely. I would anticipate that in this world that Canada would be looking at the Eurofighter Typhoon to eventually replace the Grumman Tomcats and Panavia Tornados they have now. Mind you, Canada might be inclined to propose a stealth fighter project with the UK, and the Eurofighter in this world might be a stealth fighter with more nations involved in it than IOTL. We might even be able to get the Swedes in on this, to use some of the excellent electronics from the JAS 39 Gripen in return for perhaps the Gripen being bought as a light fighter by some of the nations.
I agree. In this world, I have Suharto remain in power, and he attempts to stop the Timorese independence movement by force. However, his army is initially beaten back by the rebels, but they come back in a very brutal matter. At that point, Canberra has seen about enough of the Indonesians killing the Timorese and decides to send the Indonesians a message. In this case, the F-111s fly from bases in Queensland and Northern Territory to hammer numerous places, with the Vulcans also in on the action and the Hornets running escort, them being refueled by the RAAF's fleet of VC-7C and VC-9A tankers. Result is the Indonesian Air Force gets gutted like a fish and the Indonesian attack fails because of the Timorese rebels having access to lots of Australian support. Suharto falls, and his successor cuts a deal with Australia and East Timor. The perhaps-unpleasant side effect of this however is on John Howard's ego, but that's a different story.
Bali eagerly welcomes back the flux of Australian tourists, and Suharto's war with them in soon forgotten. But the Bali bombing, which kills 88 Australians (as IOTL) is both shocking and infuriating, and in this TL one of the bombers is a child of a prominent Indonesian cleric. Indonesia's response to the investigation is slowed by uncooperative local authorities, forcing Australia to look into the matter themselves. Intelligence work discovers a number of Jemaah Islamiah camps in Borneo. Canberra passes this off to Jakarta - who do nothing about it for political reasons. So, the RAAF does something about it themselves, and bombs one of the camps, killing a hundred plus militants. Indonesia is, of course, pissed that the RAAF violated their airspace again and turns to the Russians for support, causing frosty relations for a while, but neither Canberra nor the Australian people are sorry about the action.
The RN in this world has four angled-deck carriers, and while the Argentines are rather more competent in terms of their armed forces, so are the British. The Argentines use a stockpile of Exocets on their Super Etendards to attack the RN groups first, escorted by Argentine F-4D Phantom IIs and Mirage F1s. These groups take considerable losses from FAA F-4s, who have the benefit of AWACS aircraft, forcing the F-111s and Canberras, which had been assigned to support the ground troops, to attempt to strike RN vessels. Hermes and Victorious take bomb hits from F-111s but neither are sunk (and the Argentines lose four F-111s in the attempt to Harriers and F-4s), but the RN takes rather more losses in this war than IOTL, with ten ships lost (including 3 Type 42s) with the loss of about 350 RN personnel. The F-111s are also used in an attempt to Ascension Island, but they run into a wall of CF-111Hs and get chewed up in the process.
Not in this world. In my world, India's receiving a number of Avro Vulcans infuriates the Pakistanis, who demand something similar from the Americans - who don't deliver, as they are at this point trying to pry India from the Soviet sphere. Pakistan then as a result turns to the Soviets for help.
There are several points to address here.
First, South Africa was dismantling petty apartheid by 1970, in large part because their economic situation of the time was making many of the commercial restrictions troublesome for South Africa's economy, namely the fact that SA's unemployment rate across all races was in the single digits in 1970. The war in Angola and the Soweto riots killed the growth dead, and that's why all of the last vestiges of petty apartheid disappeared by the middle of the 1970s. SA's white government created a new constitution giving legislative power to the Colored and Indian populations of SA in 1983, though many felt it was a sham in large part because it was all subject to a white veto and some aspects of apartheid remained. Had SA bit the bullet and made the Indians and Coloreds have the same rights as whites, it might have held longer.
The USA under the scenario of top-end gear getting to the Cubans would be more likely to fuel the development of better South African weapons. It's long been figured that the CIA or somebody else in Washington facilitated the delivery of plans and designs for the Milan and Ingwe anti-tank missiles to SA in the early 1980s, and they didn't object to SA acquiring stuff from Israel. It's possible to have SA acquire some things via Israel, but I don't think the F-111 would be on that list, as its too obvious and too expensive. I can see C-130s, Hueys and maybe even Chinooks getting to SA that way, but not much else. Too obvious. But in this world, you'd quite likely see the Rooivalk attack helicopter in SA service by the early to mid 1980s, and they might be able to finish the Atlas Carver, and it may well use South African knockoffs of the Pratt and Whitney PW1120 engine designed for Israel's souped-up Phantoms. If the Cubans are upping the ante, South Africa will as well, and while nobody in the West can be seen doing it, they'd facilitate Pretoria doing it themselves. Pretoria wouldn't bitch at that, either.
As for Pakistan, they did not have nuclear weapons until 1998, and the F-111 would not be high on their list of priorities in any case. In my little TL, they turned towards the USSR in any case, so it wouldn't matter.
Cook
Banned
All US personnel departed Iran during the revolution. The Iranian air force then maintained their fleet of American built aircraft throughout the eight years of the Iran-Iraq war. Far from never seeing service, the Iranian F-14’s were used as AWACS aircraft, able to detect Iraqi jets at extreme range and vector F-4’s to intercept.
The Islamic Republic’s air force had declined significantly on that which the Shah maintained, principally because of the large number of aircrew who fled the country following the fall of the Shah and others that were purged by the new regime, but the fact that they remained a significant regional air force even during one of the longest wars of the twentieth century speaks volumes.
Besides which, as said before, the Shah’s air force had a very solid reputation. And it is the Shah’s air force that would have been the customer for the F-111.
Pangur
Donor
It was worth a try!
Even that's not going to work. Apart from war time the French are not going to allow US aircraft to use there bases
If they cant damage the flight desk then that's even better than sinking them - the RN would have to send ships home with them to protect them.
OK, I get that as it fits with where my head was at when I suggested the idea.