Possible operators of the F-111

[AdA]

Loss leader

Here's a twisted one. The TSR2 goes ahead and Britain offers it for export. The US senses a threat to its market domination and gives interested countries a really good deal on F111F aircraft as an option. They loose money on each deal, but prevent Britain from securing export orders...

 

[NothingNow]

The F-111 is a heavy strike plane and it's laughable to try and make a case that it isn't an offensive weapon.

Actually there's plenty you could do with such an airframe that isn't going to violate that offensive weapon bit.

For instance, you could use it for Maritime Strike and Patrol. With it's payload you could carry a lot of Harpoons or other anti-ship missiles, have the gunpod in the bay for warning shots (or replace it with another fuel tank,) and it'd easily have the stationkeeping ability for a long patrol, especially if you deleted the ejection pod, and adopted a flightdeck setup like that of the Su-34 for additional crew comfort and the added Endurance that only a nap a shit and a cup of coffee can provide.

It could also be used as a stand-off Reconnaissance platform, fitted out for ELINT or Photo Reconnaissance as needed, which is again a pretty simple conversion.

Hell, a Fullback-style Flightdeck on an interceptor version might've made for a sale to the Canadians to replace the CF-101 and CF-104, (although probably not the CF-116) in service, doing pretty much everything. Especially if it was a series of Spey engined variants on offer.

 

[Blue cat]

If the F-111 did not have the development issues in the beginning how many nations would have purchased it? In the OTL its was flown by the USAF and the RAAF. I would think that had development been no where as long and troublesome and the production version been cheaper than OTL that the additional list of operators would look like this

USN, RAF, RCAF, IIAF and maybe Turkey.

Is that list feasible or have I added/missed of an air force?

The reasoning behind my list goes as follows. Each of those operators needed range more than anything else be that as a bomber or a fighter.

A Canadian order would not have been out of the question. Given a different political climate in Canada and a more successfull F111 it's conceviable that the F111 could have been purchased in lieu of the F5. A less successfull F104 could also drive a deisre to buy the F111 as a replacemnent for the CF104.

The F111 would IMHO have been a better strike air craft than the CF104 and the Canadians never really emphaised air to air roles for their CF5's and CF104's so the lack of air to air performance of the F111 would not have been much of an issue. If the Canadians had decided to retain their nuclear strike role in Europe into the 70's and 80's then an F111 purchase would have been more likely.

Conceviably an interceptor variant fitted with AAM's might have been of interest as a CF101 replacement. The long range, two crew memebers, twin engines, internal gun in the weapons bay, and perhaps the ejectable crew module vs ejection seats all would have made sense in this role.

 

[Matt Wiser]

All of the bugs had been worked out, given time. But by 1972, expecting export sales was not very likely.

GD, as I said, did have a land-based version of the B as a paper study, and it could have fulfilled the USAF/RCAF long-range interceptor mission for NORAD, and for the RAF and JASDF. The AIM-54/AWG-9 combo was hard to beat in that mission.

The F-111, in RAAF service, had a maritime strike mission with Harpoon. Substitute Kormoran for Harpoon, and it fills the West German Navy's maritime strike needs. The same for Italy, and it could be wired for Sea Eagle or whatever the customer wants.

 

[Gunnarnz]

I am well aware of the Swedish nuclear program was dropped but it doesn´t change the fact that an of the shelf F-111 would be cheaper than developing and producing the A-36

You're overlooking the political element I think. Economic concerns are not always the most important ones, and in this case Sweden was trying to appear neutral. Normally they avoided buying military equipment from other states, partly because it might make them look like they were taking sides and partly because it might make them dependent on another state to keep the platforms in service. They developed their own armaments industry in order to mitigate those factors, although following the end of the Cold War they seem to have relaxed a bit.

 

[Riain]

I think everyone is overlooking the political element. High-end military hardware sales are a very politicised thing in the US, and elsewhere. The Congress must be notified of all major potential arms sales and they authorise, modify or block the sale based on how they want the region to go. Here are the most recent notifications, check out May 22.
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/36b_index.htm

In adddition the US doesn't sell a weapon they sell a capability, if they think that a country can't fully use a weapopns system, or another system would better suit a country's needs they won't sell what was requested. So if we think back to the 60s, when the F111 was entering service, there aren't many countries that can justify the F111 AND use it properly.

South Africa bought the Buccaneer, perhaps it's a potential customer before the arms ban takes effect. Perhaps the British could on-sell their F111K with US approval in the same way the US on-sold Harriers to Franco's Spain because the British wouldn't.

 

[Matt Wiser]

Good point. Congressional approval in most of these cases is a given. Even the Shah's Iran had no issues with sales getting approved. The only one that might be a problem is Saudi Arabia-but even the Israeli lobby can be beaten: the AWACS/F-15C sale in the late '70s-early '80s proves that.

 

[TheMann]

The RCAF may have been interested, but when Trudeau comes in, forget it.

As I have proven (and others would agree with) having him get his ass kicked in the early 1970s is fairly easy. The F-111 was a strike aircraft, however, and Canada's fighter fleet was at the time made up of the CF-104, CF-100, CF-101 and CF-116 (F-5). The F-5 was bought because it was cheap - the RCAF wanted the F-4 Phantom and fought like hell for them. Best bet here might be for GD to have Canuck F-111s made in Canada, and propose that the Canadians (which had a major unemployment in the problem in the early 1970s) build their F-111s and rebuild their F-4s in Canada. GD could even propose the F-111B (with the AWG-9/AIM-54 combo) for Canada's need for interceptors.

Best way to do this is to have the unification of the Canadian Forces not go well, causing a massive problem with morale across the forces. This becomes a major problems by 1970, to the point that Canada has a hard time meeting its NATO obligations. Trudeau is hounded by the NATO countries about this, but his preferred option of leaving NATO is not an option because of both political and diplomatic opposition. In the meantime, Rolls-Royce's 1969 bankruptcy sees Orenda finish the RR RB211 engine design and finish it, leading to the Rolls-Royce Orenda RB211 being used to power the Lockheed TriStar. Lockheed's financial problems are assisted by several Canadian aerospace firms, which in return makes for some L-1011s being made in Canada. The growing aerospace industry in Canada makes the obsolete RCAF fleet look worse still. The RCAF's plans for new aircraft are up, but the F-5 is declared completely unsuitable for the RCAF and as such never enters service.

By 1971, Trudeau is losing points diplomatically and needs to do something. General Dynamics, with the F-111 running out of orders, goes for the long ball and offers the entire F-111B project to the RCAF, proposing that Canadair take over the F-111B project, and have the RCAF replace its fleet of CF-100 and CF-101 interceptors with the F-111B. This is an expensive option, but it is loudly picked up on by both the (anti-communist and pro-trade union) NDP and the (staunchly pro-military) Progressive Conservative party.

Trudeau loses his majority in 1972, and to keep NDP leader David Lewis happy (and get Robert Stanfield off his back), Trudeau takes over the GD proposal and quickly gets the F-111B program working under Canadair. The first Canadian F-111B flies for the first time in February 1974, and without the problems of carrier landings and a number of Canadian aerodynamic improvements, the CF-111B proves to be a capable unit. The AWG-9/AIM-54 combination is several orders of magnitude better than what it is replacing, and while the CF-111 loses out badly to the F-14 Tomcat in maneuverability, it is considerably longer-legged than the Tomcat and is able to do interceptor roles with ease. The project creates thousands of jobs and gives the Canadian aerospace industry a massive boost at a time when it needed it, and the Canadian Forces ultimately buys 136 examples of the CF-111B between 1974 and 1980. The original TF30 engines don't last long in the CF-111, with the improved CF-111C trading the TF30s for Orenda-built (and improved) versions of the Rolls Royce Spey turbofan, giving both greater power and slightly better fuel consumption.

The end of the Vietnam war sees mass numbers of F-4s left surplus, and covering the gap between the end of the obsolescent CF-100, CF-101 and CF-104 is done by a nearly 150 F-4E and F-4J Phantom IIs leased from the United States in 1972-73. Trudeau's loss in the 1974 Canadian election elevates Conservative leader Robert Stanfield to power. Stanfield's election platform on defense included the F-4s staying in Canadian service even as the CF-111 goes into full production. The United States is quite happy to go for this, and the 146 F-4 Phantoms are sold to Canada for peanuts in November 1974. All of these fly as-is for a while, but all eventually cycle through Canadair for RR-Orenda Spey engines and other improvements.

The Stanfield government's projects for Canada's aerospace industry revolve mostly around finishing the CF-111B and improving the RCAF's abilities in several other departments. The CF-100 was retired in 1970, the CF-101 in 1975 and CF-104 in 1977, as the CF-111B (given the name Chimera by the CF in 1978) and CF-144 Phantom entered service in large numbers. The first squadron of CF-111Bs is deployed to Europe in 1977, and the Canuck pilots prove to be amazingly good at what they do. Many of the improvements of Canadian CF-111s go to other nations as well, including the RR-Orenda engines.

 

[Matt Wiser]

Anything that gets rid of the crappy TF-30 engine that the AF 111s had-even the SAC Varks-is fine by me.

Don't forget that McAir had a proposal for Canadian coproduction of the F-4. The idea was that Canadair would build F-4Ds and F-4K/Ms for the RCAF, and the RAF and Royal Navy. It might have also led to the unbuilt F-4L (an F-4E with Spey engines) and the RF-4K (RF-4C with Speys) also being built in Canada.

The -111B for land-based use had the provisional GD designation (not DOD approved) as F-111M. A JASDF -111B would've been the F-111J.

There weren't that many F-4s declared surplus: the USAF and USN didn't draw down all that many squadrons, and those that were disbanded sent their planes to the Reserves. (this explains ANG F-100 and F-105 squadrons getting F-4Ds in the 1970s)

 

[Pangur]

Very informative post TheMann. The F-111/CF-111's as the Arrow reborn in some ways. The idea of a Canadian version being sold over seas just might be a tad hard unless that is that GD get a slice of the profits (very likely) On the other hand if there was a joint program between the UK and Canada then that might fly (OK bad pun!)

 

[TheMann]

Anything that gets rid of the crappy TF-30 engine that the AF 111s had-even the SAC Varks-is fine by me.

I wanted the TF30 gone too, and I figured that a souped-up Spey (better power and a little better fuel economy) would do the trick. I thought about going with an all-new engine design or an Pratt and Whitney F100, but decided that with Rolls-Royce and Orenda working together (almost happened IOTL during RR's bankruptcy problems in the late 60s) it made sense to use something RR knows works.

Don't forget that McAir had a proposal for Canadian coproduction of the F-4. The idea was that Canadair would build F-4Ds and F-4K/Ms for the RCAF, and the RAF and Royal Navy. It might have also led to the unbuilt F-4L (an F-4E with Spey engines) and the RF-4K (RF-4C with Speys) also being built in Canada.

I didn't know that, but it makes sense. Canadair's experience with building fighters up to that point had been good (CF-104) or exemplary (Canadair Sabre), so they could make the Phantom. In this world, that idea has even more idea to work, but I went with the ex-USN/USAF planes because of cost. I rather suspect that while Canada in the 1970s landed some $$$ thanks to the oil in Alberta (and in this case didn't have Trudeau to squander it as much), I didn't think both a big run of F-4s AND the CF-111 would work. But if McAir was on this and the RAF/RN were interested, with Orenda and RR working together, it might actually work. The RF-4K would probably be wanted by the CF, too, for tactical intelligence gathering.

There weren't that many F-4s declared surplus: the USAF and USN didn't draw down all that many squadrons, and those that were disbanded sent their planes to the Reserves. (this explains ANG F-100 and F-105 squadrons getting F-4Ds in the 1970s)

OK, I guess I gotta go with another program for the CF, or perhaps shove it forward a bit and get the Canadian/British F-4s built in the late 60s and early 70s, before Trudeau can screw it up and before the CF-111B project sucks up all of the excess dollars the Canadian armed forces had. Perhaps the Starfighter isn't built, but instead the Canadians look to build Phantoms to erase some of the memories of the loss of the Arrow. This results in the Anglo-Canadian-American Phantoms being serious pieces, with McDonnell Douglas getting a license fee and Canadian and British Phantoms using RR engines and lots of British and Canadian content, with many pieces made by Short Brothers and BAC with final assembly by Canadair. The first examples fly in late 1965 (accelerated by six months) and the RCAF gets their first Phantoms just in time to be merged into the unified Canadian Forces. The last CF-144 Phantom rolls off the line at Canadair in the fall of 1971. During the Vietnam war, Canadair also makes pieces for McDonnell Douglas' American F-4 orders.

Very informative post TheMann. The F-111/CF-111's as the Arrow reborn in some ways. The idea of a Canadian version being sold over seas just might be a tad hard unless that is that GD get a slice of the profits (very likely) On the other hand if there was a joint program between the UK and Canada then that might fly (OK bad pun!)

The problem there is that the F-14 will be better than the CF-111 in a number of ways, particularly in maneuverability. The Vark has a rather longer range (and since CF-111s operate from land bases, they can do better still in the fuel capacity front, and use the longer wings from the other land-based Varks) and identical electronics to the CF-111, the Canuck plane will be just as difficult to sell as the Phantom was. The way around that would be adapting the AWG-9 radar and AIM-54 missiles to a system which allows the CF-111 to also carry air-to-ground ordinance.

Britain might go for this if they have bought the F-111K for strike duties and/or co-operated with Canada on the Phantoms. The RAF's primary interceptor at the time was the English Electric Lightning, an incredible aerodynamic platform but absolutely antique in its electronics. The CF-111B would be a huge step up on the Lightning in a whole bunch of ways, really everything except for speed and acceleration.

The flip on that one might be Canada and Britain also collaborating on other military projects especially involving aviation. This has lots of potential aspects, my favorite being the CL-84 Dynavert. Canada didn't have the financial clout to build it or get anyone to take it seriously, but if the British do, then it changes the whole ball game. The AH-1 Cobra made the world see the use of attack helicopters. Now if the CL-84 can take that further and show a hovering attack bird that can fly twice as fast and 40% farther with a lot more payload, then look out world......

 

[Matt Wiser]

Convair/GD was hoping for some serious export sales, and they were hoping the Shah of Iran would be joining Australia and the U.K. in that department. And a recon pallet (as the Aussies proved with the RF-111C) can be easily added and removed from the weapons bay as needed. But when the EF-111 comes, given how sensitive the EW system was, only the RAF would qualify to get that aircraft-if they wanted it. Even Imperial Iran-if it had been around at the time, would not have qualified.

McAir had a paper proposal for both the F-4L and a Spey engined RF-4C (likely to get the RF-4K designation from DOD), but the Brits never took them up. If there's already another customer, and looking at SEA experience with the F-4E making some gun kills....The proposed deal for Canadair had the F-4D being built for the RCAF, and the F-4K/M for the British-along with any K/M variants down the line. If CVA-01 goes ahead, the Royal Navy's order is all but guaranteed to be at least 110 aircraft, and probably more for attrition replacement.

 

[Pangur]

The problem there is that the F-14 will be better than the CF-111 in a number of ways, particularly in maneuverability. The Vark has a rather longer range (and since CF-111s operate from land bases, they can do better still in the fuel capacity front, and use the longer wings from the other land-based Varks) and identical electronics to the CF-111, the Canuck plane will be just as difficult to sell as the Phantom was. The way around that would be adapting the AWG-9 radar and AIM-54 missiles to a system which allows the CF-111 to also carry air-to-ground ordinance.

Would the F-14 have happened in this world? If the F-111 got the sales with the implied development then surely it would have made more sense for GD to revisit the F-111B design and come up with a design that matched the revised USN requirements ?

Britain might go for this if they have bought the F-111K for strike duties and/or co-operated with Canada on the Phantoms. The RAF's primary interceptor at the time was the English Electric Lightning, an incredible aerodynamic platform but absolutely antique in its electronics. The CF-111B would be a huge step up on the Lightning in a whole bunch of ways, really everything except for speed and acceleration.

I thought a bit about the F-111K and how further orders could come from a joint Canadian/British venture. The plan was for Britain to go for the AVFG so maybe that's the way to get there. With or with out the French is another question.

The flip on that one might be Canada and Britain also collaborating on other military projects especially involving aviation. This has lots of potential aspects, my favorite being the CL-84 Dynavert. Canada didn't have the financial clout to build it or get anyone to take it seriously, but if the British do, then it changes the whole ball game. The AH-1 Cobra made the world see the use of attack helicopters. Now if the CL-84 can take that further and show a hovering attack bird that can fly twice as fast and 40% farther with a lot more payload, then look out world......

The idea could keep a lot of good ideas from disappearing however you are moving into an area where the joint ventures create a genuine threat to the US military aerospace industry. Then again maybe if they (the US) had to face a genuine challenger they may have performed better

 

[Matt Wiser]

The F-14 would be going ahead because the Navy has cancelled the F-111B, and wants an aircraft that not only can fulfill the Fleet Defense mission, but also go over the beach as an air superiority fighter. The B couldn't outmanuver an F-4 (a key design requirement) and SEA experience was being factored into Navy decision making in 1967-68. The weapons system (AWG-9/AIM-54) on the B was the only thing that met or exceeded the requirement. They wanted another platform-and after RFPs-gave it to Grumman, and the rest is history.

 

[TheMann]

Would the F-14 have happened in this world? If the F-111 got the sales with the implied development then surely it would have made more sense for GD to revisit the F-111B design and come up with a design that matched the revised USN requirements ?

There was too many compromises with the F-111B for it to be used safely, and by 1966-67 General Dynamics and Grumman knew it. The F-111B could be used as an interceptor and a land based one (and it would probably be good at that), but its too big for a carrier and not nearly maneuverable enough for fighter duties. Now, the development of the use of carbonfiber and titanium to knock down the F-111Bs weight could improve much of that, but its too big to be a fighter and it won't replace the F-14.

I thought a bit about the F-111K and how further orders could come from a joint Canadian/British venture. The plan was for Britain to go for the AVFG so maybe that's the way to get there. With or with out the French is another question.

Truthfully, the F-111 is too large for the AFVG project, and the AFVG was doomed from the start by Marcel Dassault's ego - the RAF really ought not to have wasted their time on that one if you ask me. The F-14 is pretty much bang on what the RAF was looking for, and the RAF didn't consider the Tomcat entirely because of its rather steep price tag. Could the UKVG work without the French, perhaps, but if Canada is building the CF-111 they won't be in it for cost reasons. The only way I can see that working is that the Anglo-Canadian Phantoms are highly successful, and when combined with Canada's making of the CF-111 Britain wants them in on the NATO MRCA project, which eventually became the Panavia Tornado. The problem with the Tornado is that Canada will have the big CF-111 and smaller Phantom, thus having no real need for the Tornado. When the Eurofighter comes around, however, that would be something the Canucks would want in on, but that's a long ways from where we're starting.

The idea could keep a lot of good ideas from disappearing however you are moving into an area where the joint ventures create a genuine threat to the US military aerospace industry. Then again maybe if they (the US) had to face a genuine challenger they may have performed better

The Europeans, shit just the British, could have pulled that off on their own. The Europeans and military aircraft projects in the post-WWII era was fully of problems with some exceptions and some very good aircraft (Mirage III, Saab Viggen, Harrier, Aermacchi MB-326), they were never able to really compete with the America, the British being bad at cancelling promising projects - which then again, they did in fucking near every field military or civilian at some point between 1945 and 1980. Canada has the ability to be in on this, too, though the United States might not like it that much. (But then again, Stanfield was always pro-Canadian business and pro-Canadian projects, Ed Broadbent's NDP could always be counted on to support Canadian workers and Trudeau just despised the United States in general, so that might not matter that much until the mid-1980s at earliest.)

 

[MUC]

Butterfly the European Tornado away and the F111 can be sold to the UK, Italy and Germany for deep strike missions.
Since the F111 will be more expensive than the Tornado though, these nations will only buy less aircraft, substituting them with some other lighter aircraft, like the F16.

 

[Pangur]

There was too many compromises with the F-111B for it to be used safely, and by 1966-67 General Dynamics and Grumman knew it. The F-111B could be used as an interceptor and a land based one (and it would probably be good at that), but its too big for a carrier and not nearly maneuverable enough for fighter duties. Now, the development of the use of carbonfiber and titanium to knock down the F-111Bs weight could improve much of that, but its too big to be a fighter and it won't replace the F-14.

Carbon Fibre would have come way to late and titanium where as it would have helped would have sent costs through the roof.

Truthfully, the F-111 is too large for the AFVG project, and the AFVG was doomed from the start by Marcel Dassault's ego - the RAF really ought not to have wasted their time on that one if you ask me. The F-14 is pretty much bang on what the RAF was looking for, and the RAF didn't consider the Tomcat entirely because of its rather steep price tag. Could the UKVG work without the French, perhaps, but if Canada is building the CF-111 they won't be in it for cost reasons. The only way I can see that working is that the Anglo-Canadian Phantoms are highly successful, and when combined with Canada's making of the CF-111 Britain wants them in on the NATO MRCA project, which eventually became the Panavia Tornado. The problem with the Tornado is that Canada will have the big CF-111 and smaller Phantom, thus having no real need for the Tornado. When the Eurofighter comes around, however, that would be something the Canucks would want in on, but that's a long ways from where we're starting.

I could not seriously suggest that AFVG became a joint Canadian/UK/French project I had the AFVG either end up as it did and then the UK turn to Canada or that the AFVG bit not happen in the first place.

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

IIRC the RAF's original post TSR-2 plan was for the F-111K to replace the Vulcan for strategic strike duties while the AFVG would replace the Canberra for the tactical interdiction role. The story behind AFVG is confusing, I've read on other forums that apparently it had already begun development as the UKVG before TSR-2 was canned as the RAF and MoD were starting to realise that TSR-2's rising costs meant that it wasn't going to be built in the numbers originally forecast. The decision to make it a collaborative project was due to Britain's worsening public finances and to try and overcome the French veto on Britain joining the EEC. When that plan failed it morphed into the MRCA resulting into today's Tornado

 

[Thande]

One interesting thing I found out about this aircraft was that Margaret Thatcher, in her autobiography, consistently refers to it as the "F-1-11". This confused me for a while until I realised that she'd never seen the name written down, had only heard Americans talking about it (in connexion with the Libya raid and so on) and the Americans had read 111 out as "one-eleven" rather than "one hundred and eleven".

 

[Just Leo]

One interesting thing I found out about this aircraft was that Margaret Thatcher, in her autobiography, consistently refers to it as the "F-1-11". This confused me for a while until I realised that she'd never seen the name written down, had only heard Americans talking about it (in connexion with the Libya raid and so on) and the Americans had read 111 out as "one-eleven" rather than "one hundred and eleven".

What would you call the BAC 111 and the He 111? 111 Squadron RAF is read as treble one.