Possible Norman Sicily PoDs?

Zioneer

Banned
Hey guys, it's been a while since I posted in my Norman Sicily TL The Baptized Sultans, and there's a reason for that. I've gotten bored with, and also stuck on what I should do next, and over frustrated with what I've created so far.

So I'm thinking of starting over with a different point of divergence. The only problem is that I'm having trouble coming up with a good PoD to ensure a surviving, fairly prosperous independent Sicily, possibly under the Normans, or under whatever dynasty comes next. I know that simple survival of the dynasty beyond William II or Tancred would just to have their sons survive, but I feel like there's some structural/geopolitical problems in Sicily that make it difficult for them to survive. In any case, the more dramatic the PoD, the better. I'd just like ideas to help me brainstorm.

Thoughts?
 
Some random ideas:

1. When the dynasty is about to peter out in the late 1100s, reinforce it from the original source by having a few members of the Hauteville branch that remained in Normandy come south.

2. Richard the Lionheart behaves better in Sicily when en route to the Holy Land. When his crusade is over, the Sicilian navy transports Richard and his army to Sicily. He is there long enough to join with the Sicilians in fighting off Henry VI's invasion.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Some random ideas:

1. When the dynasty is about to peter out in the late 1100s, reinforce it from the original source by having a few members of the Hauteville branch that remained in Normandy come south.

2. Richard the Lionheart behaves better in Sicily when en route to the Holy Land. When his crusade is over, the Sicilian navy transports Richard and his army to Sicily. He is there long enough to join with the Sicilians in fighting off Henry VI's invasion.

1. That's a good possibility, though having more Sicilian Hautvilles survive might also be helpful. I'm not sure how Norman inheritance worked with extended family. I'm also planning on having the Hautvilles replaced as the ruling dynasty eventually anyway, so it'd have to be just enough to keep them going as an independent Sicilian Kingdom.

2. Would Richard want to fight Henry VI? I don't know how good his relations with the Germans were. Or would he be forced to fight just by being in the vicinity when Henry attacks? Would Henry even attack with another monarch there, for fear of having a two-front war?
 
Prevent Philip of Swabias assassination and the Staufer line is divided between the German-Imperial branch and the Sicilian branch. Freddie probably invades the Latin Empire and given his skill, the strength of Sicily, and the weakness of the Balkan States I can see him suceeding. The resultant "Southern Roman Empire" would be rather interesting.
 
Prevent Philip of Swabias assassination and the Staufer line is divided between the German-Imperial branch and the Sicilian branch. Freddie probably invades the Latin Empire and given his skill, the strength of Sicily, and the weakness of the Balkan States I can see him suceeding. The resultant "Southern Roman Empire" would be rather interesting.

That would still prevent Frederick to attack the (Holy Roman) Empire to for his patrimony. OTOH it would be Sicilian attacking a native monarch and the Papacy will be hell bend to prevent any union. IMHO Philipp could win this on points, but the price could be supporting Frederick in getting Constantinople....
 
I know that simple survival of the dynasty beyond William II or Tancred would just to have their sons survive, but I feel like there's some structural/geopolitical problems in Sicily that make it difficult for them to survive.

What do you think these structural/geopolitical problems are?
 

Zioneer

Banned
What do you think these structural/geopolitical problems are?
Well, the alternating friend/enemies of the Pope, the Holy Roman Emperor, the Byzantine Emperor, their own unruly vassals, and etc. It seems difficult to avoid fighting with at least one of these at any given time.

Additionally, for whatever reason, the Hautvilles seem to have had less children later on, at least in the main branch. I'm not sure whether this could be considered a "structural" problem, but it seems to be a major issue. It doesn't appear to have been an issue with Roger II, however.

The unruly vassals seem to have been cowed by the last two kings, William II and Tancred, but up until then, they're a big problem, and support anyone who wants to topple/weaken the ruling dynasty. Anti-Greek and anti-Muslim pogroms seem to be a problem near the last decades of OTL Norman Sicily, though I'm not sure why.

By the way, my main research source for Norman Sicily is John Julius Norwich's "Kingdom in the Sun" books. I assume they're well-researched, though I've noticed a bit of a dramatic tone to them.
 
1. That's a good possibility, though having more Sicilian Hautvilles survive might also be helpful. I'm not sure how Norman inheritance worked with extended family. I'm also planning on having the Hautvilles replaced as the ruling dynasty eventually anyway, so it'd have to be just enough to keep them going as an independent Sicilian Kingdom.

2. Would Richard want to fight Henry VI? I don't know how good his relations with the Germans were. Or would he be forced to fight just by being in the vicinity when Henry attacks? Would Henry even attack with another monarch there, for fear of having a two-front war?

Richard and Henry were enemies.

In OTL, Henry kept Richard as his prisoner and extracted a massive ransom for him after Richard had been captured by Leopold, Duke of Austria trying to make his way home through the Balkans. Previously, during the Third Crusade, Richard had been insulting to the German contingent, throwing the German banner in the dirt following the capture of Acre. For decades there had been a dynastic alignment of Welfs and Plantagenets vs. Hohestaufens and Capetians.

The Hautevilles were natural allies for Richard, but he had decided (probably unfairly) that Tancred had not treated Richard's sister (widow of Tancred's predecessor) well, and had been hostile when he stopped at Sicily en route to the Crusade.
 
Without Richard's ransom Henry will need to await a lot of time to raise funds for another campaign and Richard stay in Sicily forever with John rebelling at home.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Richard and Henry were enemies.

In OTL, Henry kept Richard as his prisoner and extracted a massive ransom for him after Richard had been captured by Leopold, Duke of Austria trying to make his way home through the Balkans. Previously, during the Third Crusade, Richard had been insulting to the German contingent, throwing the German banner in the dirt following the capture of Acre. For decades there had been a dynastic alignment of Welfs and Plantagenets vs. Hohestaufens and Capetians.

The Hautevilles were natural allies for Richard, but he had decided (probably unfairly) that Tancred had not treated Richard's sister (widow of Tancred's predecessor) well, and had been hostile when he stopped at Sicily en route to the Crusade.
Ah, good point. So if Tancred had treated Richard's sister better, or if he thought Tancred was treating her well, even if that wasn't the case, the Hautvilles could have been part of that grand alignment? Hmm...

And I must confess that I forgot that Duke Leopold captured Richard on Henry's orders.

Without Richard's ransom Henry will need to await a lot of time to raise funds for another campaign and Richard stay in Sicily forever with John rebelling at home.
Also a good point, though I think Richard would go back to England eventually, maybe with a Sicilian guard to avoid Henry's men.

I also think that an interesting PoD could be the rebellion against Maio of Bari turning out differently, with King William I being executed by the rebels and his son Roger being made a puppet ruler, or even the sons of William being disposed of and the illegitimate Simon of Taranto rising to the throne. I imagine Henry VI would be happy to depose the young Roger and conquer Sicily for himself though.
 
btw, I meant that "Richard can't stay in Sicily forever". But fortunately you seemed to understand the point.
 
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