Possible Manchukuo and Mengjiang independence?

Real quick,wasn't Mengjiang supposed to be part of a Chinese puppet state under Japan? Also did they plan on keeping Manchukuo a puppet in its own right cause I thought the Jingwei regime wanted to annex the region.
 

All Rounder

Gone Fishin'
Real quick,wasn't Mengjiang supposed to be part of a Chinese puppet state under Japan? Also did they plan on keeping Manchukuo a puppet in its own right cause I thought the Jingwei regime wanted to annex the region.

Mengjiang was an autonomous state technically under Chinese rule given to by Japan, and I believe the Reorganized Republic was the Asian equivalent of Vichy France, a puppet state, just not exactly one as it still was autonomous but was reformed to please the Hirohito regime.
 
What type of Chinese would it be then? Mandarin or Simplified?
I think Simplified was created in the 60s for easier Chinese learning. Interestingly, there were 2 stages of simplification, the 2nd stage was rejected since it was so Simplified no one could read it, the first is currently in use. And since Simplified Chinese (I think) was based on one old Manchurian variation of Chinese, we might see it appearing in ATL China.
 
I think Simplified was created in the 60s for easier Chinese learning. Interestingly, there were 2 stages of simplification, the 2nd stage was rejected since it was so Simplified no one could read it, the first is currently in use. And since Simplified Chinese (I think) was based on one old Manchurian variation of Chinese, we might see it appearing in ATL China.
Simplified Chinese characters have nothing to do with the Manchus. The idea was thrown around a bit in both pre-communist China and Japan and then finally adopted in both countries to varying degrees.
 
A brief interjection on this:

The Kwantung army is mainly why Japan surrendered, seeing their last major force gone cemented their defeat among the officials and even the Emperor. If Japan decided not to waste the time waiting for that invasion and instead made the deal with the powers far earlier in our time, it is could result in an independent Manchukuo, later will become Manchuria, and possibly Mengjiang, because it was still autonomous but technically apart of China when they reformed their government. I am beyond the fact of it even being able to get independent, in this time, lets say that, for certain reasons stated above, Manchukuo and Mengjiang get their independence and Stalin is fine with that.

Kwantung Army was not defeated (at least not in its entirety) not was it the last major force available to Japan. The Soviet Union had an impact all right, but that impact was primarily political: their sudden entry into the war (as much as a month before the Japanese leadership believed possible) left Japan without any foreign power of consequence to act as an intermediary for the negotiation of an end to hostilities on favorable terms. This, combined with the strategic implications of protracted nuclear bombardment discredited any further resistance in Hirohito's eyes and precipitated the early surrender. It was not due to any military developments in Manchuria (though they may have added an air of drama, at least at first), rather the irretrievable wrecking of Japan's whole strategic calculus that this took place.
 

All Rounder

Gone Fishin'
Actually, with a communist Manchuria it would seem very likely that Korea would be united but under a communist government than a split or a democratic one but that is just me, Korea could still be the same way it was at the end of WW2, I just think it is highly likely to have a united Korean peninsula that is communist.
 

All Rounder

Gone Fishin'
A brief interjection on this:



Kwantung Army was not defeated (at least not in its entirety) not was it the last major force available to Japan. The Soviet Union had an impact all right, but that impact was primarily political: their sudden entry into the war (as much as a month before the Japanese leadership believed possible) left Japan without any foreign power of consequence to act as an intermediary for the negotiation of an end to hostilities on favorable terms. This, combined with the strategic implications of protracted nuclear bombardment discredited any further resistance in Hirohito's eyes and precipitated the early surrender. It was not due to any military developments in Manchuria (though they may have added an air of drama, at least at first), rather the irretrievable wrecking of Japan's whole strategic calculus that this took place.

What was the last major force of Japan then? Was it on the mainland or somewhere else? Thank you for clarifying this to me.
 
Actually, with a communist Manchuria it would seem very likely that Korea would be united but under a communist government than a split or a democratic one but that is just me, Korea could still be the same way it was at the end of WW2, I just think it is highly likely to have a united Korean peninsula that is communist.

I think just the opposite. An "Independent Communist Manchuria" would make Communism less appealing. It is harder to even to pretend that Communist countries are independent as there is no way China would do so voluntarily . This is one reason that didn't happen in Eastern Europe or anywhere else. You can't even pretend, say Poland, is independent if it is cut into pieces.
 

All Rounder

Gone Fishin'
I think just the opposite. An "Independent Communist Manchuria" would make Communism less appealing. It is harder to even to pretend that Communist countries are independent as there is no way China would do so voluntarily . This is one reason that didn't happen in Eastern Europe or anywhere else. You can't even pretend, say Poland, is independent if it is cut into pieces.

Did you see my reasons for the divergence, and not at the beginning of this thread, on the last page. Manchuria isn't independent, it is a tightly controlled puppet ITTL. Otherwise good points.
 
Did you see my reasons for the divergence, and not at the beginning of this thread, on the last page. Manchuria isn't independent, it is a tightly controlled puppet ITTL. Otherwise good points.

That is my point, it would be painfully obvious that Manchuria was a "tightly controlled puppet." It can't even pretend to be an independent nation allied with the USSR. The puppetization doesn't have even the slightest "window dressing". What is the appeal for Communism in this scenario "Join the Revolution so we can be an abject puppet to our Soviet overlords"? :biggrin: Somehow I don't think that will work well! :p
 
What was the last major force of Japan then? Was it on the mainland or somewhere else? Thank you for clarifying this to me.

At the time of surrender the Japanese military had roughly 8 million men, 4.3 million of whom were in the Home Islands, 1 million in Manchuria and Korea, 1.2 million in China, and the rest elsewhere (mostly in Southeast Asia). The other regions of their Empire, including and especially Manchuria, had been stripped of men and weapons to prepare for the final defense on the Japanese mainland.

(That, and the fact that the Soviet invasion did not actually destroy the Kwantung Army. The bulk surrendered on Tokyo's orders without ever firing a shot.)
 
Does this need to be after the 1930's and specifically be the Manchukuo and Mengjiang of OTL? If not I have a potentially convoluted idea that might involve a butterfly net. The 1911 revolution happens in China, Outer Mongolia breaks away as in OTL. Yet Japan and Russia had made a treaty to divide Mongolia into Japanese and Russian spheres of influence.

Maybe in addition to treaty working out if it butterflys away WW1, can the turmoil in China lead to perhaps Japanese intervention into Manchuria angering the Russia causing them to rescind the treaty that as a consolation prize Japan attempts and succeeds at seizing Inner Mongolia as well, from these two even it's not the whole of Manchuria we have a Manchukuo and Mengjiang or at least an analog.

The only outcome post-1930 I could see is, if the Second Sino-Japanese War ends in a quick negotiated settlement, that allows for Japan to keep going on. Maybe if there still a WW2 that leads to a Cold War, Japan could be seen an Eastern counterweight to Soviet influence.
 

All Rounder

Gone Fishin'
Does this need to be after the 1930's and specifically be the Manchukuo and Mengjiang of OTL? If not I have a potentially convoluted idea that might involve a butterfly net. The 1911 revolution happens in China, Outer Mongolia breaks away as in OTL. Yet Japan and Russia had made a treaty to divide Mongolia into Japanese and Russian spheres of influence.

Maybe in addition to treaty working out if it butterflys away WW1, can the turmoil in China lead to perhaps Japanese intervention into Manchuria angering the Russia causing them to rescind the treaty that as a consolation prize Japan attempts and succeeds at seizing Inner Mongolia as well, from these two even it's not the whole of Manchuria we have a Manchukuo and Mengjiang or at least an analog.

The only outcome post-1930 I could see is, if the Second Sino-Japanese War ends in a quick negotiated settlement, that allows for Japan to keep going on. Maybe if there still a WW2 that leads to a Cold War, Japan could be seen an Eastern counterweight to Soviet influence.

Go to the last page and look for the second post at the top, it will explain what could occur to allow it to be "independent".
 
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