Possible Dogfights...

Yes, even got F-4 kills. But it was sort of a mismatch as the Phantom was no where as maneuverable. I don't think the MiG-19s flew against the aircrafts I mentioned in my earlier post.

according to this site F-105 downed quite a few MiG-17s. Can't (read can't be arsed to) find reversed situation though I'd be surprised if there was none
 

MacCaulay

Banned
according to this site F-105 downed quite a few MiG-17s. Can't (read can't be arsed to) find reversed situation though I'd be surprised if there was none

Yes, they did. That was actually the root of the plan for Operation Bolo, where F-4 Phantom IIs flew into North Vietnamese airspace carrying transponders that identified them as F-105s. This brought up MiG-21s thinking they were heavily loaded bombers, and not the air-superiority fighters that were actually there. Robin Olds got alot of kills out of that whole deal.
 
Yes, they did. That was actually the root of the plan for Operation Bolo, where F-4 Phantom IIs flew into North Vietnamese airspace carrying transponders that identified them as F-105s. This brought up MiG-21s thinking they were heavily loaded bombers, and not the air-superiority fighters that were actually there. Robin Olds got alot of kills out of that whole deal.

hmmm, that was also where Chappie James flew as XO on Ford flight, though he didn't get a kill himself.

btw, there were other unlikely OTL dogfights such as Dutch P-51 Mustangs & even p-40 Kittyhawks vs Indon Ki-43 Oscars during the Indon War of Independence; Israeli Avia 109 (Czech copies of the Me-109) & Spitfires vs Egyptian Spitfires 1948-49; ONUC 1960-62- UN Ethiopian F-84 Thunderstreaks vs Katanga mercs in Fouga Magisters; also P-51s vs F4U Corsairs during Honduras-El Salvador 'Football War' 1969 :)

Also, what about the following scenarios:
1971- USN F-4 Phantoms vs Indian AF Ajeets, Hunters, Mig-21s over Bangladesh
1974- Turkish invasion of Cyprus- RAF F4 Phantoms scramble from Akrotiri, take on Turkish AF F100 Super Sabres
1977-81- Belize war- RAF Harriers vs Guatemalan AF Kfirs, A37 Dragonflies
1991- USAF F15 Eagles on CAP during Op PROVIDE COMFORT down Iraqi Mi-24 Hinds attempting to napalm Kurdish refugees
1995- Croatian Mig-21s vs Serb Oraos, Galebs, Jastrebs during Op STORM

anytime from 2003- stronger UN action over Darfur- No Fly Zone established- perhaps enforced by ARMEE DE L'AIR Mirage 2000s or SAAF Gripens- who claim a kill against Sudanese AF Mig-29s, Su-27s or Mi-8s/Mi-17s defying the air exclusion zone
 

MacCaulay

Banned
ONUC 1960-62- UN Ethiopian F-84 Thunderstreaks vs Katanga mercs in Fouga Magisters

In Magisters!? Alright...I want to hear more about this, preferably with some sources I can read. Because Magisters are one of my favourite aircraft. I got to sit in one at a local airshow a few weeks back, and I'd like to know just what the circumstances were.

1971- USN F-4 Phantoms vs Indian AF Ajeets, Hunters, Mig-21s over Bangladesh
If you can come up with a logical scenario, I'm willing to hear it.

1991- USAF F15 Eagles on CAP during Op PROVIDE COMFORT down Iraqi Mi-24 Hinds attempting to napalm Kurdish refugees
This is an interesting one. According to Battle Ready, by Gen. Tony Zinni and Tom Clancy (Zinni was the senior EUCOM commander for Provide Comfort), there were a fair amount of countries running CAPs during Provide Comfort that could've run into Iraqi air units: the USAF, RAF, and Armee de l'Air all had units on station, as well as the Turkish and Italian Air Forces.

Any of them had the means and ability to engage whatever the Iraqis could bring up, and all of them had blocks of time where they were alone on CAP duty.
I'm basing this assumption on the article Balkan Rats in Air Forces Monthly from Nov. '99, when there is an indepth discussion on the deployment of national forces for CAP duties. Normally, a Combat Air Patrol is kept as close to one-nation as possible, so as to unify the ability of the aircraft to respond to threats.

1995- Croatian Mig-21s vs Serb Oraos, Galebs, Jastrebs during Op STORM
This also, would be very interesting. The Oraos and Galebs were sitting ducks for our F-16MLUs and F-15s. It would be interesting if they went up against something they might just be able to get a lucky shot off on. The Fishbed is still an outperformer against a ground attack aircraft like the Orao, but it's not so far out of it's league like the Viper and Eagle were. Especially in the range of radar and weaponry.

Also, the Bosnian and Kosovar air wars were another intersting time where smaller airforces could have conceivably bagged kills. The Dutch air force proved this when one of their F-16MLUs managed an air-to-air kill against a Serb MiG-29 Fulcrum during a CAP mission.
The Dutch, Spanish, Canadians, Italians, and Spanish all flew CAP missions at one time or another over Kosovo, and at any point there were chances they could've been challenged.
The Canadians themselves picked up hostile aircraft on their radars twice during bombing missions that jinked out of range. (Air Forces Monthly, Nov. '99)
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Yes but I'm looking for MiG-19 actions, not MiG-17.

I'd have to go back to the Osprey book about the Arab MiG-19 units in combat. Apart from that...here's the only thing I've got.

From wikipedia.com (though I dislike using it and would rather use a book): it states in the MiG 19 article that the Indonesians used MiG 19s in the taking of West New Guinea from Dutch authority in 1961.

The first question would be, of course, were the Dutch operating fighters there at the time? No, not until they new what the Indonesians were up to. (The Dutch Economy by Van Der Woode)
So we have to figure out just what the Dutch were operating at the time. A quick check of Arco's Modern Fighters and Attack Aircraft says that the Dutch had a squadron of Hawker Hunters and a small amount of F-84s in West New Guinea.

The Dutch decided to put up a brave front, and withdraw if the Indonesians called their bluff. But if they'd decided to carry it a step farther and attempt to give the Indonesian air force a bloody nose, then you could see Hawker Hunters and MiG 19s facing off over West New Guinea in 1962.
 
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HJ Tulp

Donor
I'd have to go back to the Osprey book about the Arab MiG-19 units in combat. Apart from that...here's the only thing I've got.

From wikipedia.com (though I dislike using it and would rather use a book): it states in the MiG 19 article that the Indonesians used MiG 19s in the taking of West New Guinea from Dutch authority in 1961.

The first question would be, of course, were the Dutch operating fighters there at the time? No, not until they new what the Indonesians were up to. (The Dutch Economy by Van Der Woode)
So we have to figure out just what the Dutch were operating at the time. A quick check of Arco's Modern Fighters and Attack Aircraft says that the Dutch had a squadron of Hawker Hunters and a small amount of F-84s in West New Guinea.

The Dutch decided to put up a brave front, and withdraw if the Indonesians called their bluff. But if they'd decided to carry it a step farther and attempt to give the Indonesian air force a bloody nose, then you could see Hawker Hunters and MiG 19s facing off over West New Guinea in 1962.


Actually, the Dutch strategy depended on US support which it thought it was sure of. Then ofcourse the Kennedys thought differently. The Indonesians certainly weren't flying CAP or CAS over West Papua though. Of that I'm quite sure.


EDIT: If the Karel Doorman (which would later be Argentines Veincintino De Mayo) participates in the war it was supposed to be attacked by 6 Tu-16KS-1 Badgers. The Karel Doorman had an airwing compromised of 14 TBF Avenger ASW/torpedo bombers, 10 Hawker Sea Hawk fighters, 2 S-58 ASW helicopters and an unknown nummer of S-2 Trackers.
 
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Actually, the Dutch strategy depended on US support which it thought it was sure of. Then of course the Kennedy's thought differently. The Indonesians certainly weren't flying CAP or CAS over West Papua though. Of that I'm quite sure.


EDIT: If the Karel Doorman (which would later be Argentines Veincintino De Mayo) participates in the war it was supposed to be attacked by 6 Tu-16KS-1 Badgers. The Karel Doorman had an airwing compromised of 14 TBF Avenger ASW/torpedo bombers, 10 Hawker Sea Hawk fighters, 2 S-58 ASW helicopters and an unknown nummer of S-2 Trackers.

Well the Doorman was in trouble unless the land based Hunters could intervene.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Well...Badgers against a carrier...MiG 19s vs. Hunters...that would've been...depressing.

It sounds like the best option for the Dutch (had they tried to keep the territory) would've been to fortify it as heavily as they could then get the carrier clear.

Though...6 Badgers. I wonder if there's a placement for the carrier that would keep it safe from them without completely sidelining it from the war.
 
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