Possible Dogfights...

wormyguy

Banned
According to the infallible Wikipedia, the Afghan Air Force at its peak in the mid-80s had a large inventory composed of the following.

90 x interceptor MiG-17
45 x interceptor MiG-21
60 x fighter-bomber Su-7, Su-17
45 x light bomber Il-28
150 x helicopter Mi-8, Mi-24

Apparently, the Pakistanis killed at least 10 Afghan and Soviet aircraft that strayed into Pakistani territory, not including "all the PAF Kill figures for the 1979-1988 Soviet-Afghan War which remain classified with the PAF" (presumably incidences where Pakistani planes were downed). It seems there was quite a bit of an air war at the time, and one that might provide good fodder for imagined dogfights.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Apparently, the Pakistanis killed at least 10 Afghan and Soviet aircraft that strayed into Pakistani territory, not including "all the PAF Kill figures for the 1979-1988 Soviet-Afghan War which remain classified with the PAF" (presumably incidences where Pakistani planes were downed). It seems there was quite a bit of an air war at the time, and one that might provide good fodder for imagined dogfights.

Good one...the Paks were flying...what? F-104s? F-7 Shenyangs? A mix of Western and Chinese stuff at the time?

Wait...did they have F-16s by that point? Didn't that play into the whole "Western aid through Pakistan to the mujaheddin" thing?
 

wormyguy

Banned
Wait...did they have F-16s by that point? Didn't that play into the whole "Western aid through Pakistan to the mujaheddin" thing?
Reagan sold them F-16s in '81 (you can see from the source that all the kills by the Pakis were from F-16s).
 
How about Greece and Turkey, IIRC 1996 had a few tense periods.

From Wikipedia.

The conflict over military flight activities has led to a practice of continuous tactical military provocations. Turkish aircraft regularly fly in the zones over which Greece claims control (i.e. the outer 4 miles of the claimed Greek airspace and the international parts of Athens FIR), while Greek aircraft constantly intercept them. Aircraft from both countries frequently engage in mock dog-fights. These operations often cause casualties and losses for both the Greek and Turkish Air Forces. Amongst the lost pilots are Nikolaos Sialmas, whose plane crashed near the island of Saint Eustratius in the Northern Aegean[citation needed], the Turkish F-16 pilot Nail Erdoğan, who was possibly shot down by a Greek Mirage 2000 in 1996,[6] and Kostas Iliakis, who crashed after a collision with a Turkish F-16 near the island of Karpathos while intercepting a Turkish reconnaissance flight.[7]
 
Weird. I didn't know the Harriers were deployed that early. I figured it wasn't until at earliest the late-'70s, you're talking like five years earlier that I thought...

The Harrier entered service with the RAF in 1969 with the conversion unit then No1 Sqn was the worlds first operational jet V/STOL unit in 1970.
 
That's a very interesting proposition. The Floggers and the F-14s seemed always just out of reach of each other in so many theatres, and only got that one shot in Libya.
That's certainly interesting. I suppose, then, we're assuming that the carriers would be used in place of the battleships...?

huh? Iranian F-14s were going through Iraqi MiG-23s like chainsaw through balsa. I think MiG-23s were involved in that one-phoenix-for-4-planes shootdown

In what sense? Where would that have happened? It did in a few instances in '73 with the Israelis and Arab air forces.

MiG-23s weren't used in YKW and later Israelis were using their F-4s as ground attack planes, as they did (for most part) during YKW
 
I can't help but feel sorry for the poor Hungarian or Romanian pilots who'd be told to stop those transports...those things wouldn't stand much of a chance, you'd think.
Would that be Fulcrum-on-Fulcrum, you think? I'm kind of wondering if the Romanians and Hungarians had them to put up and wouldn't have had to go with some amount of Fishbeds or Floggers.


This is all great stuff!

Hungary was NATO member then (it was 1999, not 2000). Just got in but it was a full member....
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I know it's verboten to nercro your own thread, but I found a very good possible air battle that almost happened during Operation Praying Mantis and the other Tanker operations that the US Navy did in the Gulf during the '80s.

I know a lot of us were talking about that as a good PoD for possible dogfights. This is from the Osprey Combat Aircraft #37: Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat:

"By the late summer of 1987, IRIAF F-4Es were increasingly confronting US Navy fighters and ships in the Persian Gulf. On 8 August, two F-14As from VF-21 'Freelancers', embarked on the USS Constellation (CV-84), intercepted a 91st TFW F-4E, firing two Sparrows at it. The...Phantom II crew evaded both missiles and avoided an engagement that they could hardly win, whilst the crew from one of the VF-21 jets came in for severe official criticism."

This one would be interesting. Had the Iranian CAP been larger, perhaps a pair of F-4s as was normal, or had the F-14s pursued, there could've been a kill. If it was a 2-on-2 fight, it's not a completely uneven fight. Especially since the fact that the Tomcats fired Sparrows shows that they were flying CAPs with IR and semi-active missiles, and not long-range active homers like the Phoenixes, which the Iranians were unable to match after '82.

I figured some of the folks who were reading this thread earlier would find this interesting.
 
The F-14s off of Connie had AIM-7s and AIM-9s due to prevailing ROE at the time. The IRIAF did launch F-4s during Praying Mantis (one was damaged by SM-2 from U.S.S. Wainwright, and claimed by the cruiser as a shootdown), but when an Iranian listening post heard an E-2C vectoring in F-14s from Enterprise, the Iranians were ordered to RTB as they were well within Phoenix range, and since the Iranians were using Phoenix very effectively themselves, they didn't want to take the chance of F-14s using them for clay pigeons. The end result was that VF-114 and VF-213 secured air superiority for Praying Mantis without having to fire a shot, and let the A-6s and A-7s do their thing.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
The F-14s off of Connie had AIM-7s and AIM-9s due to prevailing ROE at the time. The IRIAF did launch F-4s during Praying Mantis (one was damaged by SM-2 from U.S.S. Wainwright, and claimed by the cruiser as a shootdown), but when an Iranian listening post heard an E-2C vectoring in F-14s from Enterprise, the Iranians were ordered to RTB as they were well within Phoenix range, and since the Iranians were using Phoenix very effectively themselves, they didn't want to take the chance of F-14s using them for clay pigeons. The end result was that VF-114 and VF-213 secured air superiority for Praying Mantis without having to fire a shot, and let the A-6s and A-7s do their thing.

Huh. I never even knew about the Wainwright bit. Thanks!

I just got done reading this book that I cited about the Iranian F-4 operations, and I'm just now starting one about their F-14 operations. I don't think I realized just how many times they brushed up against the US Navy in '86 and '87.

The other that I was surprised about was that in the intro to Combat Aircraft 49: Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units In Combat talks about the Iranian wish to acquire the Tomcat as a viable interceptor to stop Soviet MiG-25 Foxbat overflights of their northern border.
They were also flying RF-4E reconnaisance flights into the USSR in the '70s at the behest of the US. This leads me to a number of interesting scenarios: we could've seen possible dogfights over northern Iran between exiting Soviet or Iranian reconnaisance planes and the indigenous aircraft that are running them down.
 
There was an incident where a MiG-25R did get locked up by an F-14, but once the MiG driver realized he'd been locked on, he turned and headed home. Then the Shah ordered a drone shoot, simulating MiG-25s, and the F-14s nailed four of six drones with Phoenix, and Ivan kept the Recon Foxbats on his side of the border. The Iraqis did lose a number of MiG-25s to F-14s later on...
 

MacCaulay

Banned
There was an incident where a MiG-25R did get locked up by an F-14, but once the MiG driver realized he'd been locked on, he turned and headed home. Then the Shah ordered a drone shoot, simulating MiG-25s, and the F-14s nailed four of six drones with Phoenix, and Ivan kept the Recon Foxbats on his side of the border. The Iraqis did lose a number of MiG-25s to F-14s later on...

Yeah. I don't think I realized just how dangerous the MiG-25 was as an opponent. The air-to-air kill in Desert Storm was definitely much to it's credit.
 
I don't think there have been enough dogfights with the MiG-19, one of the greatest dogfighters of all time. Like to see more MiG-19/J-6 vs F-100, Hawker Hunter, F-8, Mirage III, F-105, etc.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I don't think there have been enough dogfights with the MiG-19, one of the greatest dogfighters of all time. Like to see more MiG-19/J-6 vs F-100, Hawker Hunter, F-8, Mirage III, F-105, etc.

I agree Aktarian. I also think they were used in the Arab-Israeli Wars by the Arab air forces to a great degree. The Egyptians especially had a fair amount of them.
 
I agree Aktarian. I also think they were used in the Arab-Israeli Wars by the Arab air forces to a great degree. The Egyptians especially had a fair amount of them.

duh, forgot about Arabs. And I have Osprey's "Arab MiG-19 and Mi-21 units in combat". :rolleyes:
 
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