Possible Dogfights...

That is interesting. I'm reminded of the Green Leader mission, when they told the Zambian Air Force to stay on the ground while the Canberras were over the farm where ZANLA was based.

The Zambian Air Force at the time of Green Leader had virtually nothing worth calling a fighter and few skilled pilots. Hence, the Zambian Air Force wasn't gonna get its people killed trying to stop a raid they had no hope in hell of stopping anyways. They'd have needed the Cubans for a dogfight.

The prospect of Cuba getting into the war however might shift a few public opinions - particularly the Brits. I don't think it would have taken much to turn the dying days of the Rhodesian Bush War into a full-blown shitstorm.
 
In what sense? Where would that have happened? It did in a few instances in '73 with the Israelis and Arab air forces.

Perhaps some ex-USAF F-4 phantoms go to South Africa? That would do it, because Cuban and Angolan MiG-23s frequently got into it with SAAF Mirage F1s and Atlas Cheetahs over Angola and Namibia.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Perhaps some ex-USAF F-4 phantoms go to South Africa? That would do it, because Cuban and Angolan MiG-23s frequently got into it with SAAF Mirage F1s and Atlas Cheetahs over Angola and Namibia.

Did China ever have Floggers? It could've been very possible that a returning Thud or Phantom coming out of a raid from North Vietnam might have strayed to close to Chinese airspace and tangled with a Chinese fighter out over the ocean.
It seems like the kind of thing that might have actually happened but was just kept quiet.
 
The RAF were serious about the use of Lightnings against the Indonesian air force. The last operational mission of an RAF Spitfire was to stage dogfights with Lightnings as the Indonesians fielded large numbers of Mustangs and they wanted to work out how to deal with them.
 

wormyguy

Banned
I think another good possibility for dogfights was Operation Opera, in 1981, when Israel destroyed the Iraqi nuclear facility, flying over Jordan and Saudi Arabia in the process.

The Israelis probably would have just turned back if they had been intercepted over Jordanian airspace, but what's more interesting is if they are intercepted over Saudi or Iraqi airspace. The Saudis were taking their Lightnings out of service in preparation for receiving 60 F-15Cs in August (the Israeli strike force was composed of 8 F-16As and 6 F-15As), while the Iraqis had recently received shipments of Mirage F1s and MiG-25s. What's interesting is that if they had dogfighted for any extended period of time, regardless of the outcome, they would have been forced down over Saudi Arabia due to lack of fuel . . .
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I think another good possibility for dogfights was Operation Opera, in 1981, when Israel destroyed the Iraqi nuclear facility, flying over Jordan and Saudi Arabia in the process.

The Israelis probably would have just turned back if they had been intercepted over Jordanian airspace, but what's more interesting is if they are intercepted over Saudi or Iraqi airspace. The Saudis were taking their Lightnings out of service in preparation for receiving 60 F-15Cs in August (the Israeli strike force was composed of 8 F-16As and 6 F-15As), while the Iraqis had recently received shipments of Mirage F1s and MiG-25s. What's interesting is that if they had dogfighted for any extended period of time, regardless of the outcome, they would have been forced down over Saudi Arabia due to lack of fuel . . .

That is very interesting...the Israelis probably would've cleaned up, and would've been able to get back home (in my opinion) with the CSAR birds they had prepositioned for the mission, but the fight itself...I don't think Lightnings were ever involved in direct combat anywhere.
 
Actually, there were some F-4 v. MiG-23 fights: the Iran-Iraq War saw this happen quite a few times. Check the Osprey books on the F-4 and F-14 in Iranian service; they have pics and info rarely seen in the West until now. There's quite a few Iranian AF guys with MiG-23 kills in their logbooks.
 
The Harrier pilot ejected because of some system fault or other but the plane carried on flying. Not knowing where it might end up a Lightning was scrambled to put it out of it's misery.

Sounds like a similar story to that MiG-23 that crashed in Belgium in 1989, except the Russians didn't shoot the thing down.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
The Harrier pilot ejected because of some system fault or other but the plane carried on flying. Not knowing where it might end up a Lightning was scrambled to put it out of it's misery.

That's...god damned...crazy.

I've never heard of such a thing.



I've got to say that I'm really impressed by the amount of ideas that have popped up. The two that really caught my eye were the carrier-strike retaliation idea for Lebanon in '83 that would result in a skirmish with Syria and the Tanker War concept with the IrAF.

Does anyone know just how capable the F-14As or F-4s were by...say...1988, when the US carried out Praying Mantis? I'm checking now as we speak, but I figured there might be people who have actually looked into the Tanker War and may know.
 
That's...god damned...crazy.

I've never heard of such a thing.

It was in 1972 when the Gutersloh Battle Flight of probably 92 Sqn's F2As were scrambled when a Harrier suffered an engine shutdown and the force of the pilot ejecting caused the engine to restart. The Harrier then continued to cruise along towards the Inner German Border and the Lightnings were sent to dispatch it avoiding any awkward diplomatic repercussions.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
It was in 1972 when the Gutersloh Battle Flight of probably 92 Sqn's F2As were scrambled when a Harrier suffered an engine shutdown and the force of the pilot ejecting caused the engine to restart. The Harrier then continued to cruise along towards the Inner German Border and the Lightnings were sent to dispatch it avoiding any awkward diplomatic repercussions.

Weird. I didn't know the Harriers were deployed that early. I figured it wasn't until at earliest the late-'70s, you're talking like five years earlier that I thought...
 
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