Possible Dogfights...

MacCaulay

Banned
...okay, this is simple. At least I hope it is. Throughout the years since post-WWII, there have probably been numerous times that different air forces have had their aircraft up in close proximity and armed, or at least in a high state of readiness and could have brushed up against each other but for timing or some other reason didn't.

I would point out the RAAF Hornets that were, for a few days, running the CAP over Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003 while there were still some slight remnants of the IrAF around.
Or the Canadian Air Force which ran many CAP missions over Serbia during the air war in the 90s.

Such engagements that actually happened that I could point out would be...

...the Dutch F-16MLU's successful air-to-air kill of a Yugoslav MiG-29.

And the engagement in the Gulf of Sidra in 1989 when two F-14s downed two Libyan MiG-23 Floggers.

I'm just wondering what other possible dogfights people may have had rattling around in their heads.
 
There was also a lot over the Middle East during the Arab-Israeli Wars, and depending on who you believe, during the Iran-Iraq War as well.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
The classic:

USN F-14 vs. Iranian F-14 during the Tanker war.

I like that. Especially since the Iranians still would've had a fair amount of the gear in good shape and the pilots were all American trained.

I've got some pictures in books of USN pilots putting the Iranian-ordered Tomcats through the paces before they were shipped out, and it's kind of funky to see that paint job on something with US lettering.
 
RAAF Sabres were stationed Ubon, Thailand between 1962-68 and charged with the defence of this base. The restrictive ROE caused them to be marginalised, but perhaps with different ROE, or different basing they could have fought Mig17s over Nth Vietnam.

Indonesia received a lot of Soviet hardware in the early 60s, and was involved in the Konfrontasi with the British Commonwealth. This included V-Bomber overflights of Indonesian territory and naval 'right of passage' demonstrations with RN carriers. Perhaps these deliberate, confrontational, demonstrations could lead to the odd air to air scuffle.
 

wormyguy

Banned
After the Russian occupation of Pristina airport in 2000, NATO asked Hungary and Romania not to permit Russian overflights of their territory. If Russia had attempted to challenge this, you might have seen some Fulcrum-on-Fulcrum combat.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
RAAF Sabres were stationed Ubon, Thailand between 1962-68 and charged with the defence of this base. The restrictive ROE caused them to be marginalised, but perhaps with different ROE, or different basing they could have fought Mig17s over Nth Vietnam.

That would be interesting. I'm trying to figure out just what exactly could be tweaked for an engagement to happen.

Indonesia received a lot of Soviet hardware in the early 60s, and was involved in the Konfrontasi with the British Commonwealth. This included V-Bomber overflights of Indonesian territory and naval 'right of passage' demonstrations with RN carriers. Perhaps these deliberate, confrontational, demonstrations could lead to the odd air to air scuffle.

What where the British operating off their carriers at the time? Phantoms?

wormy guy said:
After the Russian occupation of Pristina airport in 2000, NATO asked Hungary and Romania not to permit Russian overflights of their territory. If Russia had attempted to challenge this, you might have seen some Fulcrum-on-Fulcrum combat.

I can't help but feel sorry for the poor Hungarian or Romanian pilots who'd be told to stop those transports...those things wouldn't stand much of a chance, you'd think.
Would that be Fulcrum-on-Fulcrum, you think? I'm kind of wondering if the Romanians and Hungarians had them to put up and wouldn't have had to go with some amount of Fishbeds or Floggers.


This is all great stuff!
 

wormyguy

Banned
Would that be Fulcrum-on-Fulcrum, you think? I'm kind of wondering if the Romanians and Hungarians had them to put up and wouldn't have had to go with some amount of Fishbeds or Floggers.
No, Hungary and Romania both operated Fulcrums (the Romanians in fact just retired theirs), so most likely the dogfights (that could be really called "dogfights" rather than "one plane blows the other out of the sky with the press of a button") would primarily be Fulcrum-on-Fulcrum. If the Russians decide to test out the Flankers, though, the Romanians/Hungarians are going to be in a rather sticky situation.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
No, Hungary and Romania both operated Fulcrums (the Romanians in fact just retired theirs), so most likely the dogfights (that could be really called "dogfights" rather than "one plane blows the other out of the sky with the press of a button") would primarily be Fulcrum-on-Fulcrum. If the Russians decide to test out the Flankers, though, the Romanians/Hungarians are going to be in a rather sticky situation.

Too true, too true. Russian doctrine is to use the wide-aspect range of the AA-11 and the reticle-sight to greatest effect by closing. That would very interesting...



I'm trying to rack my brain for other non-American ones. This Romanian/Hungarian vs. Russian one has gotten my gears turning.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I'm wondering if there's any chance of the Indonesians and Australians ever having a scuffle in the skies over East Timor when it all went downhill.

I know that the Indonesians weren't capable of putting up more than a few F-16s, F-5s, or A-4s at a time, but they did seem to want to hold on to it.
 
During the Konfrontasi the RN was flying subsonic Sea Vixens off it's carriers, armed with 4 Red Tops. The Indos had 1 sqn of MiG 21s and other sqns of Mig 19 & 17, Tu 16 and Su 7. Could lead to some very interesting situations.

I don't know if the RAAF Avon Sabres have the range to get to MiG territory from Thailand even if they had the ROE and mission.

I do know that if the Indos did try to use their airforce to interfere with the Australian intervention in Timor our Hornets would chop them up in pretty short order.
 

wormyguy

Banned
Saddam might have attempted to challenge the no-fly zones in the 90s, but there's no doubt as to the outcome of those dogfights.

Serbia might have challenged the no-fly zone over Kosovo, with slightly more doubt as to the outcome of the dogfights.

I think that the Third Taiwan Strait Crisis and the Indian invasion of Goa might also provide good PODs for air-to-air combat.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Saddam might have attempted to challenge the no-fly zones in the 90s, but there's no doubt as to the outcome of those dogfights.

That's actually more interesting than you may think. One thing the planners were kind of thinking Saddam might do (according to an Osprey book on Southern and Northern Watch) was to send an aircraft or two into the no-fly zones, lock an American, British, or French plane up, then rabbit back across to their airspace while SAM sites started rippling off missiles.

Then the Allied fighter had the choice of either turning off it's radar and not tracking the fighter that was engaging it, or keeping it on and attracting the missiles like a magnet.

Serbia might have challenged the no-fly zone over Kosovo, with slightly more doubt as to the outcome of the dogfights.

That's the one that's been tripping my trigger. The job of CAP was dictated in that one by the disparity of technology. Many countries had AIM-7s and AIM-9Ls, but not many of them had the most advanced air-to-ground munitions like the US, Britain, and France did.
So this left the Combat Air Patrol many times to the smaller air forces while the larger ones were dropping bombs.
This led to the famous Dutch F-16 air-to-air kill of a MiG-29.
The Dutch, Canadians, Italians, and French (carrier aircraft) all did CAP duties at one time or another.

I think that the Third Taiwan Strait Crisis and the Indian invasion of Goa might also provide good PODs for air-to-air combat.

I don't think I know a lot about these. Could you give me a rundown of what's going on in your head for these?
 
A couple of other possiblities: U.S. and France (F-14s and F-8s off of carriers) v. Syria, 1983 if both sides "strongly retaliate" for the bombings of their respective Military barracks in Beirut. Not pinprick strikes, but serious and sustained (a 3-5 day campaign). The Syrians had somewhat rebuilt their AF by that time, following the Bekaa Valley Turkey Shoot the previous year, so the MiG-21s, MiG-23s, and MiG-25s are able to come to the party.

The other one might be the ROKAF v. the NKAF: a few years back, NK patrol boats tried to challenge ROK fishing boats that were under naval protection in the Yellow Sea, and two NK patrol boats were sunk by the ROK Navy.The ROKAF probably did fly CAPs in the area as a consequence: the NKAF could have done the same, someone locks someone up they shouldn't, and fire buttons start getting pushed...
 

MacCaulay

Banned
A couple of other possiblities: U.S. and France (F-14s and F-8s off of carriers) v. Syria, 1983 if both sides "strongly retaliate" for the bombings of their respective Military barracks in Beirut. Not pinprick strikes, but serious and sustained (a 3-5 day campaign). The Syrians had somewhat rebuilt their AF by that time, following the Bekaa Valley Turkey Shoot the previous year, so the MiG-21s, MiG-23s, and MiG-25s are able to come to the party.

That's a very interesting proposition. The Floggers and the F-14s seemed always just out of reach of each other in so many theatres, and only got that one shot in Libya.
That's certainly interesting. I suppose, then, we're assuming that the carriers would be used in place of the battleships...?
 
I'd say on the Lebanon/Syria bit, send both. New Jersey was only sent there to pound Syrian installations a little too close to shore and to scare the Syrians. Mission accomplished on both fronts.

The US lost an A-6 and an A-7 over Lebanon, so they could decide to send more fighters in there to smoke the SAM systems, which gets the Syrian AF mad, and, well......

Here's an oddball for you all - The Rhodesian Bush War. In 1978, Cuba offered direct assistance to ZANLA and ZIPRA against the Rhodesians, and Zambia offered to base the fighters there. The Rhodesian AF at the time was flying some new stuff (Hawker Hunter, Canberra B2) and some solder stuff (de Havilland Vampire), as well as a substantial fleet of Alouette III and UH-1 Huey helicopters. The RRAF had decently skilled pilots, so a dogfight between Hunter FGA.9 and MiG-19 or MiG-21 fighters could have resulted.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Here's an oddball for you all - The Rhodesian Bush War. In 1978, Cuba offered direct assistance to ZANLA and ZIPRA against the Rhodesians, and Zambia offered to base the fighters there. The Rhodesian AF at the time was flying some new stuff (Hawker Hunter, Canberra B2) and some solder stuff (de Havilland Vampire), as well as a substantial fleet of Alouette III and UH-1 Huey helicopters. The RRAF had decently skilled pilots, so a dogfight between Hunter FGA.9 and MiG-19 or MiG-21 fighters could have resulted.

That is interesting. I'm reminded of the Green Leader mission, when they told the Zambian Air Force to stay on the ground while the Canberras were over the farm where ZANLA was based.
 
The RAF carried out exercises to deploy Lightnings along with the V-Bombers during the confrontation with Indonesia, that would make an interesting contact.
 
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