Possible Axis Victory?

Here is what I think is a possible Axis victory could look like

- Hitler does not halt the army at Dunkirk, capture the BEF.
- Only Bomb British airfields, not cities
- Take Giblator, force Spain to help and join Axis
- Take Malta
- Tell Italy not to invade Greece, promise it to them later
- Invade Egypt and move to Palestine, while forcing Vichy France to let them use Syria
- Help rebels in Iraq

Now, Germany should try to make peace. Listing so many men and the BoB might force the government to sue for peace. Allow good peace terms like French withdrawal.

Or, if no peace, then
- Invade the Soviet Union earlier
- Use more men, from France and Norway, hopefully no men in the Balkans
- Pack Winter clothes
- Treat the Soviets okay, act like liberators

I should talk about this, I know Hitler and the Nazis obsessed over "subhumans". But I think the argument can be made to wait for after the war. And maybe use some Jewish men as troops.

And
- Focas on taking Moscow before winter
- Also invade from Turkey and the Middle East. Turkey would be forced to join the Axis

- Get Japan to invade the Soviet Far-East. Promise them oil from the Middle East.

- Kill Stalin at Moscow and offer peace terms to new goverment. If not, wait and move to the A-A line.

If Britain is still in the war, move army back west while offering peace terms. If not, let Japan take Far East colonies.


What do you guys think?
 
I'll address the second point you bring up. The Luftwaffe can't bomb the RAF out of existence. Only the southern airfields were within reach of the Luftwaffe, so the RAF would do as they did IOTL: redeploy to airfields and aerodromes further to the north while continuing to intercept German bombers. This did somewhat delay their response time to Luftwaffe incursions in spite of the early warning radar system, but the hindrance was not great enough to decrease the German attrition rate to sustainable levels.

Simple fact is that the RAF was producing new pilots and aircraft faster than the Luftwaffe could replace its own losses. The Commonwealth air training programs and dispersal of aircraft manufacturing in Britain ensured the Germans would never be able to close the gap and win the war of attrition.
 
People much more skilled than me are going to dissect this, but basically, it's asking a lot from Franco (in getting Spanish cooperation), the Luftwaffe (in winning the BoB), Mussolini (in not going on an ego trip), the Deutsche Afrika Korps (in realistically taking Egypt), Vichy France (in being a pliable ally, but I guess they could Case Anton it), Russian weather (in not being muddy and causing the German advance to stall), Hitler (in not being as rabidly racist), Army Group Center (in taking Moscow), Stalin (in dying), Japan (in standing a chance against the USSR), and Churchill (in accepting any sort of peace terms from Germany), moreso than any of these would be realistically able or willing to give, and in total impossible to achieve.
 
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- Hitler does not halt the army at Dunkirk, capture the BEF.

How? The German panzers were exhausted, low on supplies, and have only one day to overcome the port garrison before the BEF shows up in force, at which point they won't be able to take the port before the evacuation can be conducted.

- Take Giblator, force Spain to help and join Axis
Franco was not interested in war and attacking Spain is counter-productive.

- Take Malta
How? The island was a fortress.
- Invade Egypt and move to Palestine, while forcing Vichy France to let them use Syria
Logistics mean this will never work out. Syria will get occupied by the Anglo-Free French before anything can be used there and the infrastructure in North Africa means they can't support much more then what they sent IOTL.

- Help rebels in Iraq
Did that as much as possible.

- Invade the Soviet Union earlier
How? Weather conditions won't be right for an invasion until late-June. Do the Nazis suddenly develop a time machine?

- Pack Winter clothes
Means you have to pack less ammo and fuel. Woops! Your tanks have run out of gas much further west and get overrun because they lack the ammunition to defend the territory they have gained.

- Treat the Soviets okay, act like liberators
Impossible if you want to feed your troops without compromising your shipments of fuel, ammunition, and spare parts (see above).
 
Here is what I think is a possible Axis victory could look like

Ohhhhhh… my goodness, this comes up often. Let's give it a whirl.

- Hitler does not halt the army at Dunkirk, capture the BEF.

Fair enough.

- Only Bomb British airfields, not cities

That would indeed have been better strategy than the OTL Nazis used. It wouldn't have been enough, though. The grand total that the Nazis could have possibly achieved there would be… to expel the Royal Air Force from bases in the South of England, which left them perfectly free to use bases in the North of England (out of German reach) from where they could still fly over the South. IOTL, of course, the Nazis failed to achieve even that.

I'm also not quite sure where you're going with this, since I presume you're fully aware that it was beyond Hitler's ability to take the United Kingdom out of the war by force, and the Battle of Britain was ludicrously damaging to Hitler's air force, which means plenty of losses without much reward (since it couldn't have actually forced the United Kingdom out of the war). A better strategy, I'd argue, would be to simply not launch the Battle of Britain altogether. That would have given Hitler quite a lot more planes to work with, and if the UK tried to take the initiative against German airspace it would be the one with the disadvantage of attacking heavy positions.

If all of this happened, of course, Tube Alloys is still there, so even if the Axis are winning everywhere else they're going to end up with one hell of a nasty surprise (the Nazis were unaware of it, and their intelligence was so amazingly incompetent that they were certainly going to remain unaware of it) when mushroom clouds appear over the Ruhr and the Rhineland. So Axis victory is fundamentally impossible because of that. But for the moment let's leave that aside and analyse each point as it comes.

- Take Giblator, force Spain to help and join Axis

Force Spain? That would be Peninsular War 2.0, i.e. a very bad idea (and how would they attack? Over the Pyrenees? Very very bad idea). I presume you mean that Hitler ought to have enlisted Franco's Spain. The problem here is that Franco didn't want to; why fight, when his nation is still recovering from the very recent Spanish Civil War and there is not much to gain?

It goes without saying that without Spain the Germans have no hope of taking Gibraltar.

- Take Malta

Oh no. The Italians (with German help) vs the British in the Mediterranean? USA or no USA, I know who I'm betting on, and it sure ain't the Italians; it's the power with the larger and qualitatively superior navy.

- Tell Italy not to invade Greece, promise it to them later

This might have worked if Hitler controlled the Axis. The problem is, things were considerably more complicated than that. In fact the Italian invasion of Greece was deliberately conceived and intended as an act of defiance against Germany—Germany had acted unilaterally, without consulting Italy, to its own advantage so Italy would do the same elsewhere, i.e. in Greece. It was essentially Benito Mussolini's temper tantrum against Hitler—not something that Hitler could have avoided by fiat.

Still, it shouldn't be too hard to pose the Axis just leaving Greece alone (Greece would have been happy to be neutral) if Hitler were more adept at avoiding offending his ally Mussolini, so we might as well do that.

- Invade Egypt and move to Palestine

So the Axis should fight in North Africa, with immensely poor supply lines either overland across a desert with horses who can't eat sand or across a sea dominated by the enemy, thus essentially dooming their own forces, of whom they could not supply large forces anyway, to be cut off and defeated?

Just because they were foolish enough to do it IOTL doesn't mean it was a good idea…

while forcing Vichy France to let them use Syria

Tread all over Vichy France? That carries a significant risk of getting Vichy France annoyed enough to be… unhelpful… when the opportunity arises.

- Help rebels in Iraq

How?

Now, Germany should try to make peace. Listing so many men and the BoB might force the government to sue for peace. Allow good peace terms like French withdrawal.

I really don't think this is likely. By this point, you see, Hitler had proven himself an opponent unlike other opponents. The British in particular had (infamously) maintained a policy for a long time of bowing to his demands, listening every time to his reassuring statements that this was the last thing he wanted… and seeing him lie, again and again.

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me; fool me a hell of a lot more than twice, a lot of shame on me but I'm not falling for that one again!

Negotiations, to be meaningful, require the implicit assumption that the sides will actually do what they say they will do. With Hitler, this assumption no longer existed; the British had (finally) been convinced that he would never stop wanting more land, that he would never stop being a threat to the rest of the world, until he was forced to stop. Ironically, it was Neville Chamberlain (after the invasion of Poland, of course) who put it rather well:

Neville Chamberlain said:
His [Hitler's] action shows convincingly that there is no chance of expecting that this man will ever give up his practice of using force to gain his will. He can only be stopped by force, and we and France are today, in fulfilment of our obligations, going to the aid of Poland who is so bravely resisting this wicked and unprovoked attack upon her people. We have a clear conscience—we have done all that any country could do to establish peace—but the situation in which no word given by Germany's ruler could be trusted and no people or country could feel itself safe has become intolerable.

I don't think I need to speak much for the mentality of the British government at the time; they spoke quite clearly for themselves.

Or, if no peace, then
- Invade the Soviet Union earlier

Why do you think so?

- Use more men

Where does he get them from?

from France and Norway,

Leave the west too undefended and you hand victory to the British by the back door. Hitler can't take too many men from there.

hopefully no men in the Balkans

Then where does he get (among other things) Romanian oil? The Nazi invasion of Yugoslavia could have been avoided by a well-chosen PoD, as (I think) could the Italian invasion of Greece, but for there to be no war in the Balkans drying up German manpower is a bit of a stretch.

- Pack Winter clothes

Yes, that one's pretty unambiguous. Fair enough.

- Treat the Soviets okay, act like liberators

I should talk about this, I know Hitler and the Nazis obsessed over "subhumans". But I think the argument can be made to wait for after the war. And maybe use some Jewish men as troops.

Er… where do you get this thought? Racial policy was something the Nazis were pretty clear on; they weren't very good at tolerating deviations from it, or even mere delays in it, for the sake of pragmatism. Given the choice between using trains to transport his soldiers to where Germany desperately needed them to fight or to transport his victims to where they were going to be murdered, Hitler prioritised the latter. That's not indicative of a man who would have happily postponed his campaign of racial extermination until after the war.

Racial extermination wasn't some unfortunate side-part of Nazi policy; it was at the core of the whole thing.

And
- Focas on taking Moscow before winter

That's easier said than done… If more effort is put into the drive towards Moscow and less towards the other army groups in Barbarossa, the result is just that the Soviet defence (once it gets into shape) reacts accordingly.

- Also invade from Turkey and the Middle East. Turkey would be forced to join the Axis

!!!!

Talk about getting overstretched! Turkey can be easily aided by both the British and the Soviets (in fact an Allied Turkey establishes a connection between them outside the Arctic and makes it much easier for them to cooperate against Germany) and it's a very large country which would now have been driven onto the Allied side. It won't be easily walked over and forced to join the Axis.

As for a willingly Axis Turkey, why? What motivation is Turkey given to join the Axis?

- Get Japan to invade the Soviet Far-East. Promise them oil from the Middle East.

Japan regarded it as extremely important to avoid a war with the Soviet Union. Japanese armour and doctrine were vastly inferior to their Soviet counterparts; they would be crushed underfoot (as indeed they were IOTL once the Soviets rolled into Manchuria, albeit not quite that decisively due to the less developed Red Army). And Hitler can promise the Japanese Middle Eastern oil all he likes, but he can't actually deliver any oil (or, for that matter, anything else) to Japan in any serious quantities, so what's the use of it?

It says something that even Imperial Japan, which thought that attacking the British Empire and the United States (each of which was a naval power that hugely industrially outclassed it) in the Pacific at the same time was a good idea, didn't attack the Soviet Far East. It would just be an incredibly bad idea.

- Kill Stalin at Moscow and offer peace terms to new goverment.

Conquest of the Soviet Union isn't as easy as just attacking Moscow. Perhaps it could have been done, but it's pretty hard. No government except a puppet can accept terms from a foe bent on the complete annihilation of not just itself but all of its people; there is literally no situation where surrender would be a better choice for the Soviets/Russians/whichever-government-it-is than fighting on.

If not, wait and move to the A-A line.

An occupation of the Soviet Union would make all of Hitler's other conquests put together look like a walk in the park. The Nazis would have to control a gigantic mass of land full of over a hundred-million people (a population exceeding their own) who passionately hate them and who know the land far better than they do, all the while having exceptionally poor supplies and trying to keep a ready stance against the Anglo-American threat in the west. That's not easy.

If Britain is still in the war, move army back west while offering peace terms. If not, let Japan take Far East colonies.

…by which time Japan, which has obligingly attacked the USA and the British Empire, has already been crushed by the United States and the British Empire, and the USA (even if it is not at war against Germany) and the British Dominions are busy supplying the UK with all that it needs… and the UK (or the USA, if the USA is at war against Germany and has therefore taken over the project as it did IOTL) is preparing to turn Germany into a car park.

I hope that serves as an adequate response.
 
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I don't think a Nazi victory in a limited war is too much of a stretch. But that would involve a Fuhrer who knew how to quit while he was still ahead. I'd say Germany's leadership might have been the biggest obstacle to victory, simply because they wanted it all. Napoleon had the same problem.
 
I don't think a Nazi victory in a limited war is too much of a stretch. But that would involve a Fuhrer who knew how to quit while he was still ahead. I'd say Germany's leadership might have been the biggest obstacle to victory, simply because they wanted it all. Napoleon had the same problem.

The problem with getting less ambitious people is that they might not make it as far precisely because they are less ambitious. Both Hitler and Napoleon managed to do a lot because of their ambitions, skills, and luck. The exact same ambition also wound up destroying them.

So go figure...
 
The 'pack winter clothes' thing.

I have seen people on this site claim that those winter clothes existed in wearhouses, but, by the time they were needed, German advance had totally outstripped their logistics and it was a matter of either sending clothes and NOT ammo, petrol for tanks, etc, and thus losing the firefight, OR shipping the military supplies and having the men be miserable.

Logistics. What made the Axis amateurs.
 
Hmm, all very good ideas. Personally, I like to capture India with a transport ship taking two soldiers from Phillipines and another two men from SouthEast Asia, and a couple fighters to land into south east asia. Then, I can build an Industrial Production Center on turn two and I plop 3 men per turn at that IPC. Before you know it, I take all of China and the Soviet Union from the Far East to the gates of Moscow.

Very good ideas from Milton Bradley's Axis and Allies...
 
Honestly the Axis can only do better with an even more logic defying (and more Allied incompetence) amount of luck than OTL. What we had happen OTL would stretch the belief of anyone writing it in a timeline.

However, I am of the firm belief that such luck can be stretched just a little bit to make a more interesting timeline.

Really the best the Nazi's could hope to achieve is outlined in the Anglo-American-Nazi war, and that one involves just as much of a stretch.

In my own still-born idea for an alt-WW2 scenario the war lasts longer because of 1) The Luftwaffe keeping to the bomb airfields strategy longer 2) more troops available to the Germans in the East because of no North Africa campaign 3) the fall of the crossing in Stalingrad which allows for the capture of the city resulting in Stalin planning another purge only to be poisoned by his underlings who fear his wrath resulting in a civil war won by the NKVD backed by Beria who negotiates a treaty with the Nazi's in exchange for keeping power 4) Spain (under a surviving Sanjurjo) joins the Axis shortly after 1944 'victory' over the Soviets which allows for the capture of Gibraltar and results in an incredibly lopsided attempt at a North Africa campaign as the Allies dominate the air in the region which puts the Germans firmly in the 'fortress' mindset. This deters Allied re-entry into the Continent for a while, but the end result is the same, just later. With chemical weapons and instant sunshine thrown into the mix.
 

Deleted member 1487

Look anything to do with the BoB is a losing proposition for the Germans. The best option in the long run is to avoid it at all costs and go for what the pre-war war games about fighting Britain demonstrated was the best course of action and of course what Luftwaffe Intelligence was pushing: aerial mining of British ports and supporting the KM as best as possible. That was impossible with Goering running the show and Hitler getting fed all sorts of bad info by him.

There is no guarantee that that strategy would work, but its the best option on the table; fighting the BoB weakens the LW much more proportionally than the RAF and damages it in quality much more relative to the RAF. Plus it plays to the RAF's strengths: daylight fighter defenses. A nighttime mining strategy with a long term focus on constricting the British war economy to the point that they have to quit was really the only way to defeat Britain, as an invasion was impossible, as was a strength-on-strength aerial campaign. Fighting to control the English Channel by day, as was done in July IOTL was fine and necessary to control shipping routes, but anything beyond that is counter productive, not least of which is because it gives the British a propaganda victory for their public, but also the US; same with a Blitz bombing campaign against cities/industry, as it just victimizes innocents, which is excellent fodder for British propaganda.

So really by avoiding the BoB and Blitz Germany is saving ~2265 aircraft and crews:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz
In turn they can go after Britain's pressure point, which are imports. Having proper aerial recon for Uboats, mining of critical harbors (Merseyside was bringing in around 90% of British imports), and daylight aerial attacks on British shipping were what was needed. It provides little grist for the propaganda mill in the form of photos of bombed out civilians, while making it seem like Britain was losing. The US was not ready to help the British in any serious way before mid-1942 beyond the security patrols on 1941.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Blitz
As well as providing anchorage for naval ships from many nations, the Mersey's ports and dockers would handle over 90 per cent of all the war material brought into Britain from abroad with some 75 million tons passing through its 11 miles (18 km) of quays. Liverpool was the eastern end of a Transatlantic chain of supplies from North America, without which Britain could not have pursued the war.

Without the BoB there are a lot more bombers that can be used for mining and attacking shipping, IIRC about 600 medium bombers, plus it saves the majority of the best surviving German pilots. Britain will go on the night and daylight offensives as they did historically in 1940-42 with minimal effect other than damaging the RAF on LW terms instead of the other way around.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Blenheim#Operational_history
The Blenheim units raided German occupied airfields throughout July to December 1940, both during daylight hours and at night. Although most of these raids were unproductive...

There were also some missions which produced an almost 100% casualty rate amongst the Blenheims; one such operation was mounted on 13 August 1940 against a Luftwaffe airfield near Aalborg in north-western Denmark by 12 aircraft of 82 Squadron. One Blenheim returned early (the pilot was later charged and due to appear before a court martial but was killed on another operation), the other 11, which reached Denmark, were shot down, five by flak and six by Bf 109s.[13]

Blenheim-equipped units had been formed to carry out long-range strategic reconnaissance missions over Germany and German-occupied territories, as well as bombing operations. In this role, the Blenheims once again proved to be too slow and vulnerable against Luftwaffe fighters and they took constant casualties.[14]

The Blenheims hit their targets (Fortuna Power Station in Oberaußem-Fortuna and the Goldenberg Power Station in Hürth-Knapsack) but 12 of the Blenheims were lost during the raid, 22% of those that took part, which was far above the sustainable loss rate of less than 5%.
http://www.warbirdsforum.com/topic/5517-the-circus-operations-of-1941/
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83432
http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/raftimeline1941.cfm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdgeschwader_2#European_Service
In preparation for the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941 most fighter units had departed East by May 1941. Two Jagdgeschwader were left for the defence of North Western Europe, JG 2 and JG 26 (Schlageter).
For the next two years these two Geschwader were the main adversaries to the RAF's day offensives over Europe. The two Jagdgeschwader maintained around 120 serviceable Bf 109E and F’s to face the increasing number of RAF Fighter Command sweeps conducted to both wear down the Luftwaffe in a war of attrition and relieve pressure on the Eastern Front.
Careful husbanding of resources and astute tactical awareness meant JG 2 and JG 26 kept their losses to a minimum while inflicting maximum damage on the RAF Spitfires. This became even more evident with the arrival of the Focke-Wulf Fw 190A to units in late 1941 - early 1942, which outclassed the current Spitfire Mark Vb in service with the RAF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdgeschwader_26#Campaign_in_the_West
Galland's careful husbanding of his resources and astute tactical awareness meant JG 26 kept their losses to a minimum while inflicting maximum damage on the RAF's Spitfires through 1941. This became even more evident with the arrival of the potent Focke-Wulf Fw 190A to units in late 1941 - early 1942, which, in most cases, outclassed the current Spitfire Mark Vb in service with the RAF. In late 1941 JG 26 started converting to the Fw 190A fighter. I. and II. Gruppe were soon fully equipped with this aircraft, and although the III Gruppe started converting, the process was stopped and it continued using various versions of the Bf 109 for the remainder of the war. By the end of 1941 JG 26 had claimed more than 900 victories since September 1939 (some 400 since May 1941), and had lost some 95 pilots killed (34 POW) in return. The highest scoring pilots at this time were Adolf Galland (97), Hptm Müncheberg (62) and Hptm Josef Priller (58).

The British attempts to fight their way into control of the skies over France after the BoB were abject failures and very costly for them relative to the Germans; it was only after the USAAF really got going in 1942 that the Germans had to reinforce and got into trouble, so going on the defensive against the RAF during the day is actually beneficial to the Germans, as it draws out the RAF fighters to basically die on German terms. If the Germans don't fight the BoB, Britain basically ends up fighting a Battle of France and suffers accordingly.

Defeating Britain was possible if the LW had the proper strategy and stuck to its pre-war plans instead of letting Hitler and Goering dictate strategy. It would take a long time, probably around 12-18 months from July 1940, but its doable. Then the Germans just have to avoid going East and the war is over. Of course the problem as always is Hitler and his messed up ideology.
 
Here is what I think is a possible Axis victory could look like

1.- Hitler does not halt the army at Dunkirk, capture the BEF.
2.- Only Bomb British airfields, not cities
3.- Take Giblator, force Spain to help and join Axis
4.- Take Malta
5.- Tell Italy not to invade Greece, promise it to them later
6.- Invade Egypt and move to Palestine, while forcing Vichy France to let them use Syria
7. - Help rebels in Iraq

Now, Germany should try to make peace. Listing so many men and the BoB might force the government to sue for peace. Allow good peace terms like French withdrawal.

Or, if no peace, then
- Invade the Soviet Union earlier
- Use more men, from France and Norway, hopefully no men in the Balkans
- Pack Winter clothes
- Treat the Soviets okay, act like liberators

I should talk about this, I know Hitler and the Nazis obsessed over "subhumans". But I think the argument can be made to wait for after the war. And maybe use some Jewish men as troops.

And
- Focas on taking Moscow before winter
- Also invade from Turkey and the Middle East. Turkey would be forced to join the Axis

- Get Japan to invade the Soviet Far-East. Promise them oil from the Middle East.

- Kill Stalin at Moscow and offer peace terms to new goverment. If not, wait and move to the A-A line.

If Britain is still in the war, move army back west while offering peace terms. If not, let Japan take Far East colonies.


What do you guys think?

Not horrific ideas, here's my two cents

1. Yeah that would cause a rather nasty blow for the British. Granted though there would be higher German casualties.

2. Again a better plan, but not a huge game changer. Saves more planes, but best bet is to not attack the British at all. If they sally, fight from defensive positions. Remember, the RAF is pulling pilots from across the Empire and the world and can basically infinitely replace them whereas Germany only has a finite pool. If the British want tot come to them, let them.

3. As CalBear once said, there is a reason Hitler and Mussolini died hated and being hunted by angry mobs and Franco died alone in his bed surrounded by friends and family. Franco's cost for entering the war was high, either on purpose or because that's the resources Spain genuinely needed to make a difference. Remember Spain has just come out of civil war and is weak both financially and militarily. Locking Gibraltar down is hard and having fighting Spain is arguably not worth the cost in resources. It'd be like Italy, but probably even less competent.

4. Malta. Easier said than done, if Italians weren't so bloody hopeless...

5. Good plan here too, hard though because Mussolini had an ego. Germany was goose stepping on everybody while Italy was still tying it's shoe-laces. Mussolini believed Italy and Germany were equal, and was not going to be controlled. Mussolini wanted his peice of glory, hence North Africa and Greece with the dismal results of OTL.

Invading North Africa and Palestine. Just don't. Not needed, German troops don't need to be fighting in the desert, they are needed fighting in the East.

Invading the USSR is a finickey thing, invade to early you lose, invade to late you lose. Ever played Oregon Trail and you have to pick the month of departure otherwise the elements fuck you? Same kinda deal. Without Greece and North Africa, Germany has more men. However, Russia is a notoriously cold bitch of a place to attack and favours the defenders. Germany can't afford to go deep into Russia, certainly not push past the Urals, logistics involved are too difficult. Germany winning in the USSR more relies on Soviet incompetence rather than Germany planning in the end.

Wiking, do reckon it's better to not engage Britain at all? Not waste the resources and just swat them at arms length?

The 'pack winter clothes' thing.

I have seen people on this site claim that those winter clothes existed in wearhouses, but, by the time they were needed, German advance had totally outstripped their logistics and it was a matter of either sending clothes and NOT ammo, petrol for tanks, etc, and thus losing the firefight, OR shipping the military supplies and having the men be miserable.

Logistics. What made the Axis amateurs.

Yeah this was an endemic problem. Germany wasn't the best at supplying it's forces. Army marches on it's stomach.
 

Deleted member 1487

Wiking, do reckon it's better to not engage Britain at all? Not waste the resources and just swat them at arms length?
No, the British need to be engaged because they are blockading Europe and holding out to get the US in the war, which FDR is set on doing; they are buying the US time to rearm and mobilize public opinion and the only way to head off that conflict is to beat the British before the US is ready and not give the British the ability to present themselves as a cause worth fighting for; initially the US government didn't want to support the British because they thought they were going to be defeated and anything given to them would go to the Germans eventually and what the US had was better spent on preparing its military in the meantime:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyers_for_Bases_Agreement#Background
With German troops advancing rapidly into France and many in the US Government convinced that the defeat of France and Britain was imminent, the United States sent a proposal to the United Kingdom through the British Ambassador, the Marquess of Lothian, for an American lease of airfields on Trinidad, Bermuda, and Newfoundland.[2] British Prime Minister Winston Churchill initially rejected the offer on May 27 unless Britain received something immediate in return. On June 1, as the defeat of France loomed, President Roosevelt bypassed the Neutrality Act by declaring as "surplus" many millions of rounds of American ammunition and obsolescent small arms, and authorizing their shipment to the United Kingdom. But Roosevelt rejected Churchill's pleas for destroyers for the Royal Navy.

By August, while Britain and her Empire stood alone against Germany, the American Ambassador Joseph P. Kennedy reported from London that a British surrender was "inevitable". Seeking to persuade Roosevelt to send the destroyers, Churchill warned Roosevelt ominously that if Britain were vanquished, its colonial islands close to American shores could become a direct threat to America if they fell into German hands.
The Battle of Britain convinced the US by September that the British had fight in them and were going to be able to hold out; that was the primary change in US suppositions about the British; take away that struggle on the British terms and the lose that morale boost themselves and instead the fight is on German terms, as at night the Germans had the advantage in training and guidance technology (Battle of the Beams...the British did not develop something similar until 1942). The British were pretty hopeless at night until 1941 when the Beaufighter and better AI radar were available in numbers. If the Germans are fighting a battle the British are losing at without the morale boosting and ultimately successful BoB, then perceptions change. Instead the British look hapless and the Germans ascendent. One cannot overstate just how much the news reels of LW planes being shot down and the imagery of wrecks scattered all over the British countryside meant in terms of British morale and US perceptions of their viability. Keep off the enraging bombing of civilians, both to the American and British publics, and no serious evidence of a major defeat of the Germans (BoB) then British morale is damaged, as is American perceptions of British viability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#Aftermath
The Battle also signalled a significant shift in American opinion. During the battle, many Americans accepted the view promoted by Joseph Kennedy, the American ambassador in London, who believed that Great Britain could not survive. However, Roosevelt wanted a second opinion, and sent "Wild Bill" Donovan on a brief visit to Britain; he became convinced Britain would survive and should be supported in every possible way.[193][194]

Now, if you add in the effect of the Germans hunkering down for a long siege, then British strategic calculus changes too, as the German resistance had passed them plans for Barbarossa in August 1940, which kept them in the war. They knew they just had to wait until Summer of 1941 and they would have an ally fighting the German army on the continent; the BoB in combination with that told them they could hold out; if the German resistance instead feeds them plans that the Germans were going for the long haul and weren't going to attack Stalin until Britain was defeated, plus no BoB victory to boost their morale, then they are going to think of terms; as it was Churchill was talking of offering some after the German invasion failed in 1940, but that was before the intelligence about Barbarossa.
http://www.amazon.com/1940-Myth-Reality-Clive-Ponting/dp/0929587685/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1

In addition, British intelligence gathering information through Ultra warned the Soviet Union of impending invasion several months prior to 22 June 1941.[70]

In August 1940 British intelligence had received hints of German plans to attack the Soviets only a week after Hitler informally approved the plans for Barbarossa.[70]

Waller, John. (1996). The Unseen War in Europe: Espionage and Conspiracy in the Second World War. London: Tauris & Co. ISBN 978-1-86064-092-6.

Plus the British had a lot of SigInt about German plans in general:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra#German
During the Battle of Britain, Air Chief Marshall Sir Hugh Dowding, Commander-in-Chief of RAF Fighter Command, had a teleprinter link from Bletchley Park to his headquarters at RAF Bentley Priory for Ultra reports. Ultra intelligence kept him informed of the German strategy,[32] of the strength and location of various Luftwaffe units and often provided advance warning of bombing raids (but not of their specific targets).[33] These contributed to the British success. Dowding was bitterly and sometimes unfairly criticized by others who did not see Ultra, but did not disclose his source.
Decryption of traffic from Luftwaffe radio networks provided a great deal of indirect intelligence about the Germans' planned Operation Sea Lion to invade England in 1940[34] and, on 17 September 1940, about its cancellation. [35]
An Ultra message reported that equipment at German airfields in Belgium for loading planes with paratroops and their gear was to be dismantled. This was taken as a clear signal that Sea Lion had been cancelled.


Ultra intelligence fully revealed the preparations for Operation Barbarossa, the German invasion of the USSR. Although this information was passed to the Soviet government, Stalin refused to believe it.[44] The information did, however, help British planning, knowing that substantial German forces were to be deployed to the East.
Lewin, Ronald (2001) [1978], Ultra goes to War (Penguin Classic Military History ed.), London: Penguin Group, ISBN 978-0-14-139042-0 Focuses on the battle-field exploitation of Ultra material.
 
Hmm, all very good ideas. Personally, I like to capture India with a transport ship taking two soldiers from Phillipines and another two men from SouthEast Asia, and a couple fighters to land into south east asia. Then, I can build an Industrial Production Center on turn two and I plop 3 men per turn at that IPC. Before you know it, I take all of China and the Soviet Union from the Far East to the gates of Moscow.

Very good ideas from Milton Bradley's Axis and Allies...

Excellent but what if the British player reinforces India on turn one and builds an IPC? It's easy, just pull the infantryman out of Syria with the transport from India and fly the bomber from England (it can make it). If you are playing the computer game you can use the bomber to transport and infantryman from England as well.
 
I think the real problem is, they can take Britain, or they can take the SU, but not both. That's not to say than there aren't ways the axis couldn't improve, although as I see it these are mostly in Africa, I mean, I'm not sure how Rommel missed the weak-point in Tobruk's defences, and later, Operation battleaxe came very close to disaster, oh, and didn't the Italians have a chance to capture Malta in 1940? Put those three together, and I can see Rommel in Alexandria in late 1941, and with the improved supply lines, maybe even at port Said, there sinking some old hulks in the canal to prevent the RN intervening further. Not that I consider this actually likely, just doable with incredible luck. I'm also not sure it's actually helpful, sure it would free up a few more supplies for Russia come 1942, but it would take more supplies in 1941.
 
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Malta wasn't a fortress of any kind in the summer of 1940, the island's best defense was its geography (rocky coastline, hills) not fitting very well with airborne or seaborne invasion; that in itself doesn't mean "impossible to be conquered" but just "hard" or if you prefer "highly costing" for an hypothetic Italian or Axis force of the time.

The problem was mainly within the higher ranks of Italian armed forces and political establishment: they erroneously thought Malta would have capitulated after just a little bit of half-hearted bombings, so why risking a freshly created and unexperienced para unit or expend our amphibious elite corp, without mentioning the possible loss of any capital ship (an authentic terror of RM) against an enemy that -in their evaluations- was about to fall anyway?

When, in 1942, they began to seriously considering taking the island by force, the tide of the war in the Mediterranean Sea has already turned in favor of the Allies, and Malta has of course become really a fortress.
 
How about by the winter of 1940, in the early days of Compass could they have taken it?
 
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Some of the suggestions, looked at in isolation, are not bad at all and do represent the only way for Germany.

Malta: Indeed possible in 1940. Should have been done. But isn't it a bit of hindsight as well?

Gibraltar: Invading Gibraltar was indeed possible. A heavy bombardment might also have closed it as a naval base

Palestine: Invading Russia from the South? Also a great idea. Cutting the Russian oil. Logistics would be problematic in the extreme.

Barbarossa: Aim at a stalemate.

All of it could have been better and was within grasp, but this would require a sane Hitler and Nazi leadership.

Even so, Axis victory is not possible in the long run and with the entry of the US any chance evaporates.

Stalemate might be the option in a 1940/41 time frame.

Now, if we build that into this equation, we could consider:

1) Give France, Italy and Spain equal status in a proto-EU (i like this idea very much).

2) Isolate UK (like Continental System)

3) Hit UK where it matters (Suez) and economy

4) Either get the rest of the world into a crusade against Communism OR leave it alone and prepare for a possible Russian attack. It might not come IF Germany can deepen the economic ties via a proto-EU.

Imnproving a few bits her and there will, IMHO, not bring about a German victory in the classic sense.

Ivan
 
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