Possible Airship President Redux
- Thread starter Eckener
- Start date
How about for Japan, the emperor is being used by members in his military, like in OTL according to many.
How about Japan attacks Russian targets ar one point?
How about Japan attacks Russian targets ar one point?
I have considered a Japanese attack on Russia. Just not sure how that would affect things in Europe.
Another thing I'm considering is about the people who are mentioned later in the TL. In the OV, I really used a lot of OTL figures, just in altered positions, and probably did that a little too heavily (especially with having Clinton becoming the first Socialist President, possibly with having Thatcher become PM after the fall of the fascist government, among others). So I'm thinking of possibly having more "new faces" in the rewrite. What do you all think?
Either people entering roles different from OTL, people who are considered rather "insignificant" to history in OTL, or people who did not exist in OTL.
Maybe after serving as a diapimat in America, Madeline Albright runs for the Czek Presidency, and Kissinger becomes a foreign policy man and leader oinGermany.
So I have started a draft rewrite of the Airship President TL. Wether or not I post it on here depends on how far I can get and how happy I am with the results. Haven't written enough yet to be worth posting.
I have been analyzing the first few parts, and realize I really left a lot out on the political situation in Germany, and some possible key players that shouldn't have been ignored. Such as the DNVP (German National People's Party), Franz von Papen, and others that held power during the Hindenburg Era (both pre and post Hitler). I do have possible plans for the DNVP in the post-Nazi era, and may use it to replace the "Monarchist Party" that gains momentum in the later years of the Eckener Presidency that successfully pushed for the return of the monarchy (that or I may make it an ally of the monarchists).
Some other things I'm considering:
-Albert Speer..though by 1932 he was a Nazi, he wasn't a member of Hitler's inner circle for some time, and with the collapse of the Nazi's by 1934 ITTL, I could see a whole new life for him. Possibly becomes a popular architect in Berlin in the Eckener Era and early part of the New Monarchy Era?
- The Luftwaffe...wasn't established until 1935 under Hitler, but the quasi-air force groups existed, and weren't (or weren't all) Nazi. What would this alt-Germany's air force look like? (and would it be called the Luftwaffe, or the old name under the kaisers, the "Luftstreitkräfte").
-military zeps...in the OV, the US and GB both have Navy Airships (and the US later builds Army Airships), but Germany never builds a single military zeppelin. If America and Britain keep military airships, wouldn't it be likely that Germany would as well? Especially after Eckener works with the Western Allies to renegotiate the Versailles Treaty?
Anyway, just some thoughts to ponder. Love getting ideas and feedback from others. That's what made the OV of this TL possible.
I have been analyzing the first few parts, and realize I really left a lot out on the political situation in Germany, and some possible key players that shouldn't have been ignored. Such as the DNVP (German National People's Party), Franz von Papen, and others that held power during the Hindenburg Era (both pre and post Hitler). I do have possible plans for the DNVP in the post-Nazi era, and may use it to replace the "Monarchist Party" that gains momentum in the later years of the Eckener Presidency that successfully pushed for the return of the monarchy (that or I may make it an ally of the monarchists).
Some other things I'm considering:
-Albert Speer..though by 1932 he was a Nazi, he wasn't a member of Hitler's inner circle for some time, and with the collapse of the Nazi's by 1934 ITTL, I could see a whole new life for him. Possibly becomes a popular architect in Berlin in the Eckener Era and early part of the New Monarchy Era?
- The Luftwaffe...wasn't established until 1935 under Hitler, but the quasi-air force groups existed, and weren't (or weren't all) Nazi. What would this alt-Germany's air force look like? (and would it be called the Luftwaffe, or the old name under the kaisers, the "Luftstreitkräfte").
-military zeps...in the OV, the US and GB both have Navy Airships (and the US later builds Army Airships), but Germany never builds a single military zeppelin. If America and Britain keep military airships, wouldn't it be likely that Germany would as well? Especially after Eckener works with the Western Allies to renegotiate the Versailles Treaty?
Anyway, just some thoughts to ponder. Love getting ideas and feedback from others. That's what made the OV of this TL possible.
Good luck. If you need a proofreader, you know whom to ask.
Hm. Do you know what Eckener's political views (aside from being opposed to the Nazis) were? That'd have a huge influence on who he would choose as Chancellor, and eventually what line he'd take in internal policy. Also, the DNVP becoming the monarchists is quite a good idea; they did actually support a restoration of the Kaiser, but I think they were too far right to be readily accepted by the public.
That's an interesting idea. Another idea that hits me, while we're on the subject, is that the Bauhaus would probably never close without the Nazis in power, and so we could see interwar modernism surviving longer.
Hm. I think Luftwaffe was a Nazi neologism (like Wehrmacht), and that Luftstreitkräfte was the general term for air forces. Looking it up on Wikipedia, I notice that this was and is indeed the case, with the Royal Air Force being referred to as "die Luftstreitkräfte des Vereinigten Königreichs Großbritannien" ("the Air Force of the United Kingdom of Great Britain"), and the French Air Force being called the "Französische Luftstreitkräfte".
I actually don't think military airships generally are a good idea, since an airplane with a machine gun can easily shoot holes through enough gas cells to being the entire airship crashing down. God forbid hydrogen-lifted ships, in which a single incendiary bullet can mean death. To keep the first from happening, the gas cells would have to be protected by some kind of bulletproof material, which would be very heavy and limit the lift of the airship.
Good luck. If you need a proofreader, you know whom to ask.
I may take you up on that. I've rewritten the prologue and part 1, which covers the election. Currently working on part 2, which covers the rest of 1932.
Im not sure, honestly. Wiki just says he was an anti-Nazi. In the OV, I had him picking Otto Wels (SDP) as chancellor, who is later assassinated by the Nazis in an attempt on Eckener's life in November 1932. The main reason I went with Wels is that at the time the SDP is the largest party in the Reichstag. I'm still thinking about keeping Wels as the first Chancellor, but I think I may make von Papen as Vice Chancellor, and possibly having him take over once Wels is shot.
And yeah, the DNVP will either become the monarchists, or will be in close support of them. Interestingly enough, for a time the DNVP was more moderate, but turned back to the right after 1928. It's possible with Eckener's election that they moderate themselves again. (also of note, the DNVP is the fifth largest party in the Reichstag at the time of Eckener's election...in order, the big 5 parties are: SDP, Nazi, Commie, Center, and DNVP)
I hadn't thought of that. I'll have to look into Bauhaus more and see what I can come up with.
It's possible, though I'm not totally sure. The Federal Republic of Germany calls it's air force the Luftwaffe as well (where as the GDR called theirs the Luftstreitkrafte der NVA. Also of note, the Swiss refer to their air force as the Schweizer Luftwaffe. So...it's possible that once the Weimar under Eckener reestablishes a German air force, the could call it the Luftwaffe.
I will give you that. I am aware that airships are not the best for military purposes, and in the US and Britain they are mainly used as scouts and transports. I could see Germany adopting the use of airships for scouts during the Russian war in the 1950s?
Then again, maybe not. From what I've read, Eckener himself didn't promote the use of airships for military purposes (I did some research on Eckener trying to get the US government to give Germany helium after the Hindenburg disaster, and he testified to that affect to officials in DC).
BlondieBC
Banned
If the Kaiser come back, it should get its old name. Also, you should consider if Germany has both Naval Air Force and Army Air Force.
If the US and UK have airships, the Germans will build a few for pride reasons alone. IMO, with some skill in the design phase, a dual use civilian passenger liner, aux warship is possible. Also, Posen has substantial Helium supply (10% of current world production). Germany can secure a non-USA helium source, it is mostly a cost issue. Much like if the Saudi oil fields were found in 1890, it would greatly delay many other oilfields around the world. With Helium, the largest and cheapest to produce field was found first.
It seems like you have the USA with airplane ships, unless i am confusing another TL. What does UK use them for?
BlondieBC
Banned
By the 1950's, a Helium filled airship would make a great radar platform, but I have trouble seeing them fly over enemy held land. The are basically a big, comfortable AWAC, and just like the AWAC, they will be behind massive fighter protection in wartime. In peace time, they could make an excellent way to monitor things like the North Sea for co-ordinating the German Coast Guard, and co-ordinating Search and Rescue. Most roles the USA uses a refuel transport or civilian airliner for, a Zeppelin can also do well.
I think there are some other roles they could be used for, but they require continual operation and investment in the 1920's and 1930's.
Any chance of this revised TL have a surge on High-altitude wind power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_altitude_wind_power In OTL, Oberth worked with the idea) and Space-based Solar Power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_solar_power) due the widespread use of Zeppelins and the more advanced space technology?
Well, Id imagine that the air force would be reestablished under Eckener, so that's before the Kaiser returns to the throne (which OV went down in 1939...though I may push it up to 1938 in the rewrite so that it is the same year that would have seen a presidential election).
I do tend to agree with you that if the US and Britain have military airships, then Germany would likely build a few just for pride's sake. If for nothing else then for search and rescue and some scouting. Possibly transport or medical services.
I do need to look into other sources of helium for Germany. I do have the USA giving helium to the Germans after Eckener takes office, but was pretty vague about it.
The USA has airship aircraft carriers in the beginning, serving as scouts. I always imagined Britain having the same, though I was never very specific about it. It'd imagine that scouting services both in England and Australia would be very useful for the British.
I agree, Zeppelin's wouldn't fly over enemy territory, unless it's possibly a medical airship.
It's possible. Both interesting concepts. I'll try and look into them and see if I couldn't work them in. Especially think the solar powered space satellite's are pretty cool.
BlondieBC
Banned
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080102093943.htm
The sources has a nice background information on processing.
http://www.madehow.com/Volume-4/Helium.html#b
Basically if you find a large natural gas field, you have helium, it is just a matter of how much it costs. Posen is the closest source. Presumably the Western Ukraine and Romanian oil fields could also produce. As would Libya if the oil fields were in production by then.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
A suggestion on that count -- have James Farley, not Cordell Hull, win the 1940 election, defeating Robert Taft. He's the likeliest to get the nomination absent FDR, it creates as stark a referendum on the New Deal as you can get, and, being a thorough machinst, he's likely to push his luck more than Hull would, leading to Democratic political difficulties in the 1940's. (I'd say though that he's also going to have a harder time getting re-elected, even with troubles with Japan, so having him die first term might help.)
I don't see Germany using zepplins for military use. In both the US and UK they're used by the navy; Germany isn't a maritime power. I can see the German coast guard and law enforcement agencies using them. Maybe the military uses them for radar observation in the '50s, but those zepplins would be much smaller than the naval airships the USN & RN are using.
Thanks for the info! I really do want to put a little more detail in technical information that what was in the OV of this TL.
Thanks for the suggestion. I may do that. Hull was picked partially because that was one of the people from Roosevelt's cabinet that I was familiar with when i started writing the OV. I'll look into Farley and see what I think. Might go with him.
I do still intend to keep Will Rogers as VP. That was sort of a signature of the TL.
Good to see you alphaboi!
Well, jury is still out on if Germany would use zeps for the armed forces. I do agree that it wouldn't be nearly as widespread as in the US and UK, and that they would be smaller in size.
But I think the point that was made by BlondieBC about Germany building a few military zeps for pride's sake alone.
So just some stuff I was thinking about yesterday that I wanted to throw out there. These aren't for sure things I want to do. Just thinking about, and wanted to get other people's opinions:
- British Empire: OV there was this vague Imperial Federation thing going on but wasn't very detailed and felt kinda forced. I'd love to see the Empire not break up. Any plausible way to keep Australia and New Zealand from adopting the Westminster Statute ITTL? In OTL they didn't adopt it for over 10 years. Canada was the only one that essentially adopted it immediately. That and South Africa (also need to do more there I think). Any real ideas? I'd love to have an Imperial Parliament, but I don't see that happening this late in the game, sadly. Common defense, common currency, though, seem plausible. One idea is that, after Britain goes fascist, maybe the other dominions do to and the fascists want to see the Empire strengthened and more unified?
- Sports: specifically, basketball. Wondering what it would take for that sport to become world-wide to where we would see some sort of international event like say the "Basketball World Cup." (if you must know, this was inspired by watching the NBA Finals. I'm from Oklahoma City so everyone is talking about the Thunder vs. Miami Heat in the Finals series. Just thought it would be cool if that was a more world wide event.)
- Alt tech names: for PCs we had "VKs" (VolksKomputer), but didn't do much else. I was wondering where we got the name "Television" from? Was thinking that maybe "Radiovision" or "Visual Radio" might come about? And I'm always open for suggestions for alt names of other modern tech as well.
- British Empire: OV there was this vague Imperial Federation thing going on but wasn't very detailed and felt kinda forced. I'd love to see the Empire not break up. Any plausible way to keep Australia and New Zealand from adopting the Westminster Statute ITTL? In OTL they didn't adopt it for over 10 years. Canada was the only one that essentially adopted it immediately. That and South Africa (also need to do more there I think). Any real ideas? I'd love to have an Imperial Parliament, but I don't see that happening this late in the game, sadly. Common defense, common currency, though, seem plausible. One idea is that, after Britain goes fascist, maybe the other dominions do to and the fascists want to see the Empire strengthened and more unified?
- Sports: specifically, basketball. Wondering what it would take for that sport to become world-wide to where we would see some sort of international event like say the "Basketball World Cup." (if you must know, this was inspired by watching the NBA Finals. I'm from Oklahoma City so everyone is talking about the Thunder vs. Miami Heat in the Finals series. Just thought it would be cool if that was a more world wide event.)
- Alt tech names: for PCs we had "VKs" (VolksKomputer), but didn't do much else. I was wondering where we got the name "Television" from? Was thinking that maybe "Radiovision" or "Visual Radio" might come about? And I'm always open for suggestions for alt names of other modern tech as well.
OTL the Statute of Westminster came in to effect automatically in Canada, South Africa, and the Irish Free State. Australia, New Zealand, and Newfoundland all had to pass legislation ratifying it (Newfoundland never did & ented up reverting to a crown colony). I don't think there's any way to delay Australia's ratification by more than a few years (especially given the Pacific War), New Zealand might wait until the 1950s. Facsism is not going to be very popular outside the UK, and a facsist government in London will probally spur the weaking of imperial ties just as surly as WWII did.
As for economic union; Canada will always favour ties with the US over rest of the Empire/Commonwealth. The same with defence. On the other hand keeping most of the other members in the Sterling Zone and some kind of common market is fairly plausible. India will still become indepentant (& likely be split into India & Pakistan) too, and I just don't see either country sticking with the monarchy very long so republican membership in the Commonwealth will still be allowed. Ireland will also become a republic, but I can easily see it staying in the Commonwealth. I don't know about Newfoundland; it's hard to see it getting dominion status back so it'll probally still end up part of Canada (or maybe a self-governing colony like Bermuda).
What you'll probally end up with is a British Commonwealth were most members (but not Canada) have close economic ties and currencies linked to the Pound Sterling, most members are monarchies in personal union with the UK, but some are republics (with the odd independent monarchy thrown in), and all members having their own militaries, some of which are in a Nato-type alliance with the UK. No common citzenship per se, but varying degrees of prefential treatment for migrants from one Commonwealth country to another, and long-term permanant residents from other Commonwealth countries being given political rights (like the vote) than aren't availible to unnaturalized foreigners.
As for economic union; Canada will always favour ties with the US over rest of the Empire/Commonwealth. The same with defence. On the other hand keeping most of the other members in the Sterling Zone and some kind of common market is fairly plausible. India will still become indepentant (& likely be split into India & Pakistan) too, and I just don't see either country sticking with the monarchy very long so republican membership in the Commonwealth will still be allowed. Ireland will also become a republic, but I can easily see it staying in the Commonwealth. I don't know about Newfoundland; it's hard to see it getting dominion status back so it'll probally still end up part of Canada (or maybe a self-governing colony like Bermuda).
What you'll probally end up with is a British Commonwealth were most members (but not Canada) have close economic ties and currencies linked to the Pound Sterling, most members are monarchies in personal union with the UK, but some are republics (with the odd independent monarchy thrown in), and all members having their own militaries, some of which are in a Nato-type alliance with the UK. No common citzenship per se, but varying degrees of prefential treatment for migrants from one Commonwealth country to another, and long-term permanant residents from other Commonwealth countries being given political rights (like the vote) than aren't availible to unnaturalized foreigners.