Possible Airship President Redux

Thanks for all the feedback Ares, I appreciate it.

I think my main reason for a redux is that I've learned a lot more since when I initially started this TL,in addition to the fact that I also have improved my writing skills as well. I also know that there are inconsistencies, both in the TL itself and in the general format and style, and I'd like to correct that.

The benefit with a redux is that this time around, I'll know where the TL is going, where as originally I was sailing into uncharted territory. With a roadmap to follow I can make sure things are consistent and hopefully more coherent.

I like the idea of going from FPTP to MMP. Just not sure how to achieve that. Any ideas?

Still kinda up in the air as to whether or not I'll keep the return of the Kaiser. I DO know I'll keep Russia unified this time. The whole East Russia thing and the war it ended up causing was, IMO, too cumbersome and possibly unrealistic. No, whether the czar will return to this unified Russia or not remains to be seen.

With the Japanese war, I was pretty vague, and during the original go-round, some probably rightly criticized that some of the events were unrealistic without otl events in Europe. So that really needs work. Also, military history is still my weak spot, so not sure exactly how to fix it.

If I do the rewrite (and I'm really starting to lean towards doing so), I will keep the newspaper and book articles in addition to some first person narratives. I think it would be really cool to include some points of view from ordinary people, which the original version doesn't have much of.

I think my first goal will be to make a rough outline of the TL's rewrite and post it up here for review, and then go from there.

Oh and Ares, I'm sure I'll take you up on the map offer. :)
 
Do it! Do it! Do it!
Glad I could help.

Thanks! Like I said, really considering it.

Trying to think of some first person perspectives to use for the rewrite. I think I have one idea, using my grandfather and his family. Going to have them move to Dallas for the Goodyear facility that I have open there.

But that wont be a good perspective until the 1950s and 60s.

Any other ideas or suggestions? I think i want to keep the first person stuff with normal citizens, and not the historical figures. I give "first person" perspectives for the historical persons with diaries/journals, and I think I want to keep it that way.

On another note, any ideas as to what to do in the 1980s through the 2000s if I don't have the whole Iran War thing and if Russia stays unified, which would completely negate my Alt "WWII" in the early 2000s?
 
Thanks for all the feedback Ares, I appreciate it.

I think my main reason for a redux is that I've learned a lot more since when I initially started this TL, in addition to the fact that I also have improved my writing skills as well. I also know that there are inconsistencies, both in the TL itself and in the general format and style, and I'd like to correct that.

The benefit with a redux is that this time around, I'll know where the TL is going, where as originally I was sailing into uncharted territory. With a roadmap to follow I can make sure things are consistent and hopefully more coherent.

No problem; indeed, there's more coming right now.

It's probably a good thing to redux it (can that be a verb as well?); the original was a bit inconsistent, like for example when you suddenly went back to the '60s and had fascists take over in Britain at a whim, without giving any forewarning.

I like the idea of going from FPTP to MMP. Just not sure how to achieve that. Any ideas?

Well, as I said before, Pennsylvania elected a part of its Congressmen on a general ticket several times, usually when its population had grown and it had gotten more seats after a census, but had failed to redraw its districts. Indeed, looking more at Wikipedia, several states have historically done this, and some even elected all of their congressmen on a general ticket, the most recent being Hawaii (which did it between 1962 and 1970), New Mexico (1942-1968) and Alabama (only in 1962). As I see it, the partial general-ticket elections are basically a rudimentary form of MMP.

As I see it, all that is needed to begin the process is for one state to decide to write the system of partial general-ticket representation (as it might be called ITTL; PGTR or PGTV for short) into state law. Which, in turn, means that the most recent apportionment bill can't have forbidden that (as, I think, most of them did). After that, the People's Party might decide to campaign for full MMP (i.e. distributing the at-large seats semi-proportionally instead of proportionally to the entire vote, as would be the case under PGTV), and then implement it for Californian state elections when they gain office in that state. When they gain control of Congress in the 80s, they might try to pass a constitutional amendment establishing the system for House elections.

For some more info, here is a piece written by Elections New Zealand, detailing how their change took place there.

Still kinda up in the air as to whether or not I'll keep the return of the Kaiser. I DO know I'll keep Russia unified this time. The whole East Russia thing and the war it ended up causing was, IMO, too cumbersome and possibly unrealistic. No, whether the czar will return to this unified Russia or not remains to be seen.

Yeah, I think that East Russia would decide to join the fold of Imperial Russia (whatever happened to the IBF, by the way? Did they simply restyle themselves after taking central Russia, or what happened?).

With the Japanese war, I was pretty vague, and during the original go-round, some probably rightly criticized that some of the events were unrealistic without otl events in Europe. So that really needs work. Also, military history is still my weak spot, so not sure exactly how to fix it.

Looking back, I probably agree that attacking both Pearl Harbor and the British possessions at once would probably have been a bit rash for the Japanese under the circumstances.

Basically, IOTL, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor as a show of force, to convince the Americans that they had no business interfering with Japan's plans, and that attempting to fight them would be futile. They aimed to destroy the large majority of the Pacific Fleet; however, since many of the really big ships were off on manoeuvres, they really only succeeded in riling up the world's biggest industrial power. As for the attacks against Britain, they believed (probably rightly, seeing as how quickly the colonies fell) that the British would be unable to mount a defence of their colonies with the war going on in Europe. As it turned out, the Americans were capable of defeating the Japanese on their own, without the need even for meaningful British help.

ITTL, of course, things are different. You've got a Britain that's neither at war or particularly wary of Germany, and so probably have much smaller military forces in TTL 1945 than they had in OTL 1941. However, there is also the fact that there is no war in Europe, and with it the realisation by Japan that the UK is able to throw its entire military into a naval war against them (this is, without a doubt, about the worst thing that can happen to any nation in the period). The US is still isolationist, and likely to remain that way; from what I find on Hull, he seems to have been a fairly pragmatical person, supporting the status quo situation unless it threatened US interests somehow. I don't really think the Japanese would have felt it as likely for the US to intervene against them ITTL.

If I do the rewrite (and I'm really starting to lean towards doing so), I will keep the newspaper and book articles in addition to some first person narratives. I think it would be really cool to include some points of view from ordinary people, which the original version doesn't have much of.

I think my first goal will be to make a rough outline of the TL's rewrite and post it up here for review, and then go from there.

This sounds good.

Oh and Ares, I'm sure I'll take you up on the map offer. :)

Indeed; as I said, I'll be around, so you can just PM me when we get to that stage.

Thanks! Like I said, really considering it.

Trying to think of some first person perspectives to use for the rewrite. I think I have one idea, using my grandfather and his family. Going to have them move to Dallas for the Goodyear facility that I have open there.

But that wont be a good perspective until the 1950s and 60s.

That'd be interesting. You could have that narrative interplay with the Civil Rights movement, having your grandfather encounter racial prejudice and even violence as he encounters Texan society. When is it that the New Orleans incident happens again? You could have it happen in Dallas in the new version, and have your grandfather witness it.

Any other ideas or suggestions? I think i want to keep the first person stuff with normal citizens, and not the historical figures. I give "first person" perspectives for the historical persons with diaries/journals, and I think I want to keep it that way.

Yeah, I enjoyed the journal entries as well. It's an original style of writing, and I think you should keep it and expand on it, as the later parts of the TL felt a little too much newspaper after newspaper.

On another note, any ideas as to what to do in the 1980s through the 2000s if I don't have the whole Iran War thing and if Russia stays unified, which would completely negate my Alt "WWII" in the early 2000s?

Well, an idea is for the UK (if you keep the BUF rule around) to engage in a colonial war against Nigerian separatists (they would want to hold on to the south once oil is discovered, which the natives won't like after the northerners get independence), and the have pictures leaked of war atrocities leading to widespread disgust, horror and stark condemnations from the rest of the world. The fascist leadership, however, would be adamant of this, and would vow to continue the war, only to be toppled from government (in a similar style as you had it), and then the new government would start peace negotiations and eventually withdraw. A little mish-mash of the Vietnam War, the Portuguese Colonial War and the Iran War as you had it.
 
No problem; indeed, there's more coming right now.

It's probably a good thing to redux it (can that be a verb as well?); the original was a bit inconsistent, like for example when you suddenly went back to the '60s and had fascists take over in Britain at a whim, without giving any forewarning.
Yes, there were several parts like that, and that was honestly because I just didn't know where I wanted the TL to go when I started writing it, other than keeping the airship from going the way of the Dodo. But now that I have a better idea I won't have to do updates that go back and enter stuff that I decided to put in.
I really do think I'll keep the rise of the BUF. And this time I'll have it mentioned along side other developments.

Well, as I said before, Pennsylvania elected a part of its Congressmen on a general ticket several times, usually when its population had grown and it had gotten more seats after a census, but had failed to redraw its districts. Indeed, looking more at Wikipedia, several states have historically done this, and some even elected all of their congressmen on a general ticket, the most recent being Hawaii (which did it between 1962 and 1970), New Mexico (1942-1968) and Alabama (only in 1962). As I see it, the partial general-ticket elections are basically a rudimentary form of MMP.

As I see it, all that is needed to begin the process is for one state to decide to write the system of partial general-ticket representation (as it might be called ITTL; PGTR or PGTV for short) into state law. Which, in turn, means that the most recent apportionment bill can't have forbidden that (as, I think, most of them did). After that, the People's Party might decide to campaign for full MMP (i.e. distributing the at-large seats semi-proportionally instead of proportionally to the entire vote, as would be the case under PGTV), and then implement it for Californian state elections when they gain office in that state. When they gain control of Congress in the 80s, they might try to pass a constitutional amendment establishing the system for House elections.

For some more info, here is a piece written by Elections New Zealand, detailing how their change took place there.

I like this. I could definitely see the socialists picking this up as part of their platform, and see it enacted in Cali and other states as the party gains momentum, and eventually enacted on a national level. I think that's definitely something I'll consider doing in this rewrite.


Yeah, I think that East Russia would decide to join the fold of Imperial Russia (whatever happened to the IBF, by the way? Did they simply restyle themselves after taking central Russia, or what happened?).

Agreed. Russia won't break apart in the redux, at least not "permanently" like it did in the OV.
As for the IBF....I briefly mention that after the final collapse in the 70s of the USSR and it's incorporation into the IBF, the country takes on a much more Russian identity, which eventually leads to the Baltic states wanting full independence and the federation is dissolved. I had to search through the document for that a bit. Was only a minor reference to it. Rennet that mention about inconsistencies earlier? :p


Looking back, I probably agree that attacking both Pearl Harbor and the British possessions at once would probably have been a bit rash for the Japanese under the circumstances.

Basically, IOTL, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor as a show of force, to convince the Americans that they had no business interfering with Japan's plans, and that attempting to fight them would be futile. They aimed to destroy the large majority of the Pacific Fleet; however, since many of the really big ships were off on manoeuvres, they really only succeeded in riling up the world's biggest industrial power. As for the attacks against Britain, they believed (probably rightly, seeing as how quickly the colonies fell) that the British would be unable to mount a defence of their colonies with the war going on in Europe. As it turned out, the Americans were capable of defeating the Japanese on their own, without the need even for meaningful British help.

ITTL, of course, things are different. You've got a Britain that's neither at war or particularly wary of Germany, and so probably have much smaller military forces in TTL 1945 than they had in OTL 1941. However, there is also the fact that there is no war in Europe, and with it the realisation by Japan that the UK is able to throw its entire military into a naval war against them (this is, without a doubt, about the worst thing that can happen to any nation in the period). The US is still isolationist, and likely to remain that way; from what I find on Hull, he seems to have been a fairly pragmatical person, supporting the status quo situation unless it threatened US interests somehow. I don't really think the Japanese would have felt it as likely for the US to intervene against them ITTL.

All good points. To say that the "great pacific war" of TTL needs an overhaul is an understatement. I still think some sort of conflict would open up there. Just not sure what form it should take. Possible that Imperial Japan becomes more like OTL Nazi Germany, in that it gets concession after concession from the other world powers till they push too far and war breaks out. Not sure what the straw that breaks the camels back would be, but that sounds fairly plausible IMO.

Indeed; as I said, I'll be around, so you can just PM me when we get to that stage.
Sweet. I saw some of your work the other day as I've been re-reading/catching up on the TL Union & Liberty. I was impressed.



That'd be interesting. You could have that narrative interplay with the Civil Rights movement, having your grandfather encounter racial prejudice and even violence as he encounters Texan society. When is it that the New Orleans incident happens again? You could have it happen in Dallas in the new version, and have your grandfather witness it.
Possibly. Or just the aftermath of when the New Orleans incident occurs with Dallas scrambling to comply sign PANAM's desegregation policies go through.

Any other suggestions for possible characters for ordinary people PoVs?


Yeah, I enjoyed the journal entries as well. It's an original style of writing, and I think you should keep it and expand on it, as the later parts of the TL felt a little too much newspaper after newspaper.
That is how I feel as well. The later part of the TL feels weaker because it only really relys on newspapers and lacks the private diaries and such.



Well, an idea is for the UK (if you keep the BUF rule around) to engage in a colonial war against Nigerian separatists (they would want to hold on to the south once oil is discovered, which the natives won't like after the northerners get independence), and the have pictures leaked of war atrocities leading to widespread disgust, horror and stark condemnations from the rest of the world. The fascist leadership, however, would be adamant of this, and would vow to continue the war, only to be toppled from government (in a similar style as you had it), and then the new government would start peace negotiations and eventually withdraw. A little mish-mash of the Vietnam War, the Portuguese Colonial War and the Iran War as you had it.
Hmm. That's not a bad idea. I do like the downfall of the BUF, by popular uprising in response to a prolonged and unpopular war coupled with the death of the Queen, the way I had it in the OV, so I'd like to keep that more or less intact. But I think it could be possible to incorporate that into your suggestion.
 
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Here is a list of US Presidents from the OV:

Franklin D. Roosevelt (D), 1933-1941
-Cordell Hull (D), 1941-1945
-Will Rodgers (D), 1945-1957
-Joseph P. Kennedy (D), 1957-1965
-Nelson Rockefeller (R), 1965-1973
-Herbert Humphrey (D), 1973-1974
-Joseph Kenney, Jr. (D/ND/L), 1974-1981
-Martin L. King, Jr. (L), 1981-1985
-George H.W. Bush (R), 1985-1993
-William Clinton (S), 1993-2001
-Daniel Boren (S), 2001-2002
-Samuel Doughty (S), 2002- end of TL

I did not realize that I only had two Republican presidents in the whole TL. I wonder of it isn't too unrealistic for the Dems to hold the White house from 1933-1965 and then from 1973-1985. Granted, in both of those periods there is a presidential death fairly early in a presidents term, but that still seems like a lot of time for one party to consistently control the white house.

I also realized while going through the TL to get the dates for this list, that I never actually cover the 1964 election that sees Rockefeller win the Presidency.
 
Trying to think up ideas for alternate speakers of the house.

Yeah that would b cool. I also want to do more with German political leaders. I really didn't do much there after Hugo Eckener leaves the presidency in 1939 at the restoration of the Empire. Just little tid-bits here and there. Nothing consistent or complete.

Some other things I'd possibly like to do more of that was either neglected or completely left out in the OV:

-Sports: I'd at least like to cover all the Olympics at least in brief, saying where they were and a few notable things about them. Also deal with pro developments in the USA, possibly a greater rise of soccer in the US as well, in addition to that sports popularity and organization in Europe. Another something I just wanted to throw out there for discussion: is there any possible way to see American Football exported to other parts of the world to the point where, at least if it's not an Olympic sport, there might be some international competition? Ditto all that for baseball.

-Africa: I almost completely neglected this continent in the OV, and I need to fix that. Thing is, I'm really not sure where to go here. I do sort of like Ares' idea about an oil war in Nigera with the British. Not sure what else to do after that. Possibly something with South Africa and apartheid. Didn't really touch that at all. Other suggestions?

-Automobiles: not a strong point for me at all. I only really touched on car development to deal with the development of electric and alternative fuel cars. Definitely more needed here.

-Television: only lightly touched on this as well. Would like to do more with how TV developed tech wise, along with the growth of stations and networks in the USA, and the types of programming that existed. May also do some on the development in Germany and possibly Britain and elsewhere.

I'm sure other stuff will occur to me. That's just what came toons tonight while I've been at work.
 
For German leaders, with no World War 2, how about some of the people OTL who were in the July 20 plot become German leaders in the Alternate TL, like Staufenburg, and others.
 
So I've been going over the TL some more, and I really think that the Great Pacific War, in some form or other, needs to occur. A lot of the 1950s kind of hinges on there having been a major war that the US fights.
 
Not sure how you could pull that off.

Well I mentioned in an earlier post yesterday that what I could see happening is that Japan continues to push the boundaries and gets concession after concession from the West, who don't want to provoke a War (think Nazi Germany in OTL), and then finally the West decides to take a stand, saying we wont give you more ground, and war erupts from that. May not be as bad or as far flung as I originally had it, but it's something.

Any thoughts?
 
So, although I never drew too much attention to it, the OV. Of this TL actually incorporated parts of an earlier TL I made on this thread. What I incorporated was basically the part where the USS Shenandoah doesn't crash, and the US develops a more formal airship service over 1927-28, so that by the time Eckener became President in 1932, America has three naval airships in service.

I make only a few brief references to this in the OV, but I think in the redux this should be better covered.

Thoughts on this?
 
It's this earlier TL that also covers the survival of the British airship program (essentially, the R101 crash is much less violent, and the Air Minister isn't killed, and he keeps the program together).
 
Can't help you there.

Anybody else? That's the real thing that needs a serious rewrite in the first part of the TL, and what has me hung up.

Possibly the Hong Kong attack still happens? Something with Russia maybe? Australia?
I do agree now that Hawaii would most likely NOT be attacked. There would be no real reason to poke America like that, especially since there isn't a war going on in Europe to keep the other western powers more preoccupied.

The best way I see this happening is that Japan keeps putting on pressure on the powers for land concessions to gain more territory to expand their "natural empire," and the west continues to concede. Then finally they are going to ask for one thing too many, and be told no, and then try and take it anyway, which sparks the Great Pacific War.
Maybe something with the Philippines?
 
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