Possibility of Spanish/Portuguese bringing Spices to the New World

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Deleted member 67076

Would it have been at any point possible for the Spanish or Portuguese to bring Indonesian Spices (nutmeg, clove, black pepper, cinnamon, etc) to their New World colonies, and establish plantations of said spices there?

If so, how would such a thing go? And what effects would it have? Would Indonesian contract workers be brought to Mexico for example?

I assume the biggest one would be a lowering of prices of spices given the shorter transportation costs from the New World to Europe than from Indonesia to Europe.
 
The world's second largest producer of nutmeg is Grenada courtesy of British imperialism. Nutmeg is grown in several other Caribbean islands as well. Cinnamon is grown in a number of countries in Central and South America. So yes, it is possible, however the Dutch had a monopoly on nutmeg and tried to establish one on cloves as well.
 

Deleted member 67076

The world's second largest producer of nutmeg is Grenada courtesy of British imperialism. Nutmeg is grown in several other Caribbean islands as well. Cinnamon is grown in a number of countries in Central and South America. So yes, it is possible, however the Dutch had a monopoly on nutmeg and tried to establish one on cloves as well.
Is there a way to break the Dutch monopoly?
 
Is there a way to break the Dutch monopoly?
Doesnt't matter, actually, for the time frame you're talking about. The Dutch monopoly on nutmeg began in 1621, with the Bandanese genocide (some islands called Banda were the only source of nutmeg and mace at the time and the republican nature of Bandanese government made it impossible for the Dutch to establish an effective monopoly, so the Dutch killed over 90% of the population). Similarly, it was not until 1652 that the Sultan of Ternate, the major clove producer in the Malukus/Spice Islands, agreed to eradicate non-Dutch clove trees in return for Dutch protection and subsidies. But Spanish and Portuguese power had ebbed by the 17th century. It is very possible that the Portuguese bring spices to Brazil, but it will have to be in the 16th century.

The greatest affect of this will be that the nature of the Dutch empire in Southeast Asia is significantly changed. The Dutch East India Company (VOC) was obsessed with monopolies because Europeans could rarely compete with Asians without obtaining monopolies. But they generally failed to achieve real, lasting monopolies in Southeast Asia except in one major product: fine spices, mainly because the Malukus, the only source of fine spices, had only weak kingdoms with few people and resources other than spices (meaning the Dutch could blockade them and cut off their food supplies until they did what the VOC said, or that the VOC and their auxiliaries could exterminate an island's population as happened in Banda). By contrast, pepper was everywhere from India to China. Now (assuming that spices have spread outside Brazil - otherwise Dutch Brazil might last longer, I suppose) it is impossible for the VOC to create an artificial scarcity of spices, so the Dutch will have no real reason to be so concentrated on the Malukus and the sultanates (and the Bandanese oligarchic republic) there will have much greater freedom from outside intervention. The VOC will still take an interest in the Malukus since it is the main/only source of spices for India and China, but the spice markets in South and East Asia wouldn't require such careful control as OTL in themselves. This has two main repercussions; both the little Malukun nations and the empire of Makasar, which dominated eastern Indonesia in the 17th century, will continue to flourish, while the VOC will be much weaker without the money from the spices and the manpower from their Malukun territories. The Dutch conquest of the Sultanate of Banten in Java in the 1680s relied heavily on troops from the Malukun island of Ambon, for example.

My idea is for Miguel da Paz survives and the united iberia annexes indonesia instead of the philippines.
Are you talking about the Malukus specifically?
 
Doesnt't matter, actually, for the time frame you're talking about. The Dutch monopoly on nutmeg began in 1621, with the Bandanese genocide (some islands called Banda were the only source of nutmeg and mace at the time and the republican nature of Bandanese government made it impossible for the Dutch to establish an effective monopoly, so the Dutch killed over 90% of the population). Similarly, it was not until 1652 that the Sultan of Ternate, the major clove producer in the Malukus/Spice Islands, agreed to eradicate non-Dutch clove trees in return for Dutch protection and subsidies. But Spanish and Portuguese power had ebbed by the 17th century. It is very possible that the Portuguese bring spices to Brazil, but it will have to be in the 16th century.

The greatest affect of this will be that the nature of the Dutch empire in Southeast Asia is significantly changed. The Dutch East India Company (VOC) was obsessed with monopolies because Europeans could rarely compete with Asians without obtaining monopolies. But they generally failed to achieve real, lasting monopolies in Southeast Asia except in one major product: fine spices, mainly because the Malukus, the only source of fine spices, had only weak kingdoms with few people and resources other than spices (meaning the Dutch could blockade them and cut off their food supplies until they did what the VOC said, or that the VOC and their auxiliaries could exterminate an island's population as happened in Banda). By contrast, pepper was everywhere from India to China. Now (assuming that spices have spread outside Brazil - otherwise Dutch Brazil might last longer, I suppose) it is impossible for the VOC to create an artificial scarcity of spices, so the Dutch will have no real reason to be so concentrated on the Malukus and the sultanates (and the Bandanese oligarchic republic) there will have much greater freedom from outside intervention. The VOC will still take an interest in the Malukus since it is the main/only source of spices for India and China, but the spice markets in South and East Asia wouldn't require such careful control as OTL in themselves. This has two main repercussions; both the little Malukun nations and the empire of Makasar, which dominated eastern Indonesia in the 17th century, will continue to flourish, while the VOC will be much weaker without the money from the spices and the manpower from their Malukun territories. The Dutch conquest of the Sultanate of Banten in Java in the 1680s relied heavily on troops from the Malukun island of Ambon, for example.


Are you talking about the Malukus specifically?
Maluku + Nusa Tengarra would be the plausible target for the Iberians if they unite under Miguel da Paz.
 
My best guess is that sugar was already the most profitable commodity that Europeans could produce in the tropical regions of the Americas, isn't specialization one of the basis of the international division of labor and capitalism in general? The market was certainly bigger for sugar than for other spices and focusing on one single specific commodity is a probable gain in productivity.
 

Deleted member 67076

The market was certainly bigger for sugar than for other spices and focusing on one single specific commodity is a probable gain in productivity.
This exactly was Spain's rationale for making Santo Domingo their regional hub of tobacco and beef production. Hence why I suggested Central America, as its volcanic soil and highlands are pretty similar to Indonesia's climate.

I think if Central America could become a regional producer of spices it would become a highly valuable colony that pays for itself and then some, instead of being a bunch of regional backwaters.
 
This exactly was Spain's rationale for making Santo Domingo their regional hub of tobacco and beef production. Hence why I suggested Central America, as its volcanic soil and highlands are pretty similar to Indonesia's climate.

I think if Central America could become a regional producer of spices it would become a highly valuable colony that pays for itself and then some, instead of being a bunch of regional backwaters.

Highlands are not the best climate for sugar, so, they used land with another less profitable cash crop. For argument's sake, let's say that the Spanish are capable of planting spices (as they probably were, considering that Manila is about the same age as the independent Netherlands) Would another spice be more profitable than tobacco? I guess not, they'd simply shift the cash crop.

There's some market logic behind virtual monopoly of the Dutch over spices, but I tend not to put much emphasis over the "unbreakable monopoly" argument. The Portuguese had unquestioned monopoly over eastern commerce for a while and it never occured to them to try to cultivate other cash crop in Brazil. Remeber that it only changed later, during the 19th century, Brazil gained (and it still has) the virtual monopoly over coffee production in the world, the Dutch East Indies had a distant second place. It's also important to mention that sugar beet was invented and coffee only started being massively consumed during the Industrial Revolution. As I said, it's probably a matter of international division of labor.
 

Deleted member 67076

Highlands are not the best climate for sugar, so, they used land with another less profitable cash crop. For argument's sake, let's say that the Spanish are capable of planting spices (as they probably were, considering that Manila is about the same age as the independent Netherlands) Would another spice be more profitable than tobacco? I guess not, they'd simply shift the cash crop.
I suspect it would be profitable, if the spice was cultivated in another backwater (like highland Nicaragua or Honduras) as not to compete with other colonies who were gunning for the Spanish market. Additionally, these regions would be a safer investment than the Caribbean colonies who are prone to invasion and raids from other powers.
 
I suspect it would be profitable, if the spice was cultivated in another backwater (like highland Nicaragua or Honduras) as not to compete with other colonies who were gunning for the Spanish market. Additionally, these regions would be a safer investment than the Caribbean colonies who are prone to invasion and raids from other powers.

I do not know about the economic history of these regions to give a serious opinion about it, but, peripheral areas tend to serve economic centers in order to make it even more specialized and profitable. As you mentioned, Santo Domingo was a center of distribution of beef probably because there was a big and wealthy market for it in New Spain. This is also an important factor that I forgot to mention. Mexicans can concentrate in mining precious metals and import basic staple food. The economic integration of Spanish America possibly is a nuisance to more peripheral areas. Remember how Argentina as a colony was mostly known a supplier of jerked beef to Peru, notwithstanding the fact that the Pampas are one of the most fertile areas of the world.
 
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