Possibility of having Doenitz's Flensburg Government to exist longer

it's pretty easy to let Doenitz remain in power for a few month longer, just have the allies see it useful for him to remain a puppet for a bit longer

This is precisely true. His government was the SURRENDERING AUTHORITY and did continue to exist for some weeks after this date. Just because the country has surrendered unconditionally does not automatically imply that it should no longer have a government. Doenitz and co certainly HOPED to last a bit longer, but the Western Allies got fed up with their attempts to do something, and wound them up. Circumstances could certainly exist where they continue to have very limited powers for a while longer

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
This is precisely true. His government was the SURRENDERING AUTHORITY and did continue to exist for some weeks after this date. Just because the country has surrendered unconditionally does not automatically imply that it should no longer have a government. Doenitz and co certainly HOPED to last a bit longer, but the Western Allies got fed up with their attempts to do something, and wound them up. Circumstances could certainly exist where they continue to have very limited powers for a while longer

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Summing it up we now have three ways in which Doenitz's kind of government could exist while longer:

-In the times of Soviet Invasion
-The Allied wish more help from the Doenitz government to smooth over the surrender and capitulation of Germany. They also want to use Doenitz government in order to get war-criminals, important scientists and VIP.
-Hitler for some reason died earlier, or internal dispute in Nazi Germany caused Doenitz kind of government to form.
 
Summing it up we now have three ways in which Doenitz's kind of government could exist while longer:

-In the times of Soviet Invasion
-The Allied wish more help from the Doenitz government to smooth over the surrender and capitulation of Germany. They also want to use Doenitz government in order to get war-criminals, important scientists and VIP.
-Hitler for some reason died earlier, or internal dispute in Nazi Germany caused Doenitz kind of government to form.

To sum up my position :

- Soviet Invasion is ASB,
- War criminals are members of this government and Unconditionnal Surrender means, "we can do what we want with you"
- Allies didn't want to negociate with any kind of government, somebody was required to sign the "Unconditionnal Surrender" and then it's the Year Zero...

During 4 years from 1945 to 1949, there was not such thing as a German state, Germany was even give a provisionnal flag, and even the German Red Cross was disolved being a nazi inflitrated organization and having accept to close eyes on crimes against humanity...

I just read this Wikipedia article and I don't know the Allies, both western and eastern went so far to dissolve german state...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany_(1945–1990)
 
To sum up my position :

- Soviet Invasion is ASB,
- War criminals are members of this government and Unconditionnal Surrender means, "we can do what we want with you"
- Allies didn't want to negociate with any kind of government, somebody was required to sign the "Unconditionnal Surrender" and then it's the Year Zero...

During 4 years from 1945 to 1949, there was not such thing as a German state, Germany was even give a provisionnal flag, and even the German Red Cross was disolved being a nazi inflitrated organization and having accept to close eyes on crimes against humanity...

I just read this Wikipedia article and I don't know the Allies, both western and eastern went so far to dissolve german state...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany_(1945%E2%80%931990)

Point one, Soviet invasion is not alien-space-bat, there were really some incidents that really could cause massive outburst, not considering also that some historians still speculate what Stalin were thinking at that time.

Not so, Doenitz in fact refused Himmler and the SS in a showdown in Flensburg few days after Hitler committed suicide.

Disbanding Germany, there were some suggestions made but those were not realized due to the fact that having Germany to stand as a buffer and backing against the Soviet was important.

It is unfortunate that you refuse to see the fact that the Allied and even the Soviet did finally created a German state realizing their importance for long term. What they did in the few years after World War II I think was just what the Victors would do after defeating such a nation like Nazi Germany. But in this case in my position, the Allied realize that they should form an emergency German state sooner than they do in OTL.
 
Remember that Churchill even endorsed Rommel personally after his death because of the Stauffenberg plot.


What you're failing to understand is that Churchill could do that because Rommel was dead.

In 1945 a living German commander, whether Heer, SS, LW, or KM is far too tainted by their association with the Nazis to be considered for any post-war post greater than men's room attendant and even that is pushing things.

The Allies are not going to accept, work with, or allow any post-war German government which has any link to the Nazi regime, let alone one whose chief executive was appointed by Hitler in his will. Your ideas are little more than a fantasy.
 
Point one, Soviet invasion is not alien-space-bat...


Yes, it is because the one man more than any other who could make it happen in 1945, Stalin, was praying to a god he didn't believe in that it wouldn't happen.

Not so, Doenitz in fact refused Himmler and the SS in a showdown in Flensburg few days after Hitler committed suicide.

Bollocks. There were far more war criminals than Himmler and the SS. In 1945 even Doenitz was considered a war criminal and in a few years he would be serving a 10 year sentence as a war criminal.

Disbanding Germany, there were some suggestions made but those were not realized due to the fact that having Germany to stand as a buffer and backing against the Soviet was important.

Disbanding Germany was never an Allied goal, disbanding Germany's government and crafting a replacement as the Allies saw fit was the goal. The Allies even promised in their various unconditional surrender announcements that the German people would not be destroyed.

Don't confuse the German nation with the government of the German nation.

It is unfortunate...

No. The only unfortunate thing here is your inability to comprehend what the Allies' war aims actually were and what their opinions towards German officialdom was.

The Allies set up German administrations almost immediately in the areas they controlled. There was never any doubt that a German government or governments would eventually be set-up.

What you're failing to comprehend is that no Allied government in 1945 with the guns still warm is going to set up a German government with even the slightest hint of Nazis in it, let alone a government whose chief was appointed to that position by Hitler's last will and testament.
 
What you're failing to understand is that Churchill could do that because Rommel was dead.

In 1945 a living German commander, whether Heer, SS, LW, or KM is far too tainted by their association with the Nazis to be considered for any post-war post greater than men's room attendant and even that is pushing things.

The Allies are not going to accept, work with, or allow any post-war German government which has any link to the Nazi regime, let alone one whose chief executive was appointed by Hitler in his will. Your ideas are little more than a fantasy.

In the face of public the Allied might try to maintain their stance over Germans, but politically on the back room why do you think the US went so far as to prioritize resources and giving security clearances to German scientists that previously worked under the Nazi without any question asked. Wehrner von Braun if you would imagine, worked to create V-2, used thereafter to bomb London. Few years afterward he was one of the leading NASA scientists with countless other scientists. If I'm an English or American with a position that every Germans are Nazi I would be very angry hearing that.

Another case, Erich Traub a virologist. If I am an Allied investigator on war criminal I would be sure to prioritize my attention on him first. Reinforced by the fact that he worked under Himmler. But after the war the Allied cooperate with him on several biological experiment. He was also on the list of scientists prioritized under Operation Paperclip.

(Remember also Dr.Strangelove :D)

I'm also open to other German leaders to be the Head of State or Government of this different German government. If Doenitz is no, then I'm sure there are others who are prepared to take his position.

Yes, it is because the one man more than any other who could make it happen in 1945, Stalin, was praying to a god he didn't believe in that it wouldn't happen.
Any source which I could read on regarding his views?

Bollocks. There were far more war criminals than Himmler and the SS. In 1945 even Doenitz was considered a war criminal and in a few years he would be serving a 10 year sentence as a war criminal.
It is difficult, because Germany lost the war she would ultimately have more war criminals. I'm sure if the Allied were the one to lost the war, and even Le May conceded it, there would be also a lot more war criminals for the Allied.

No. The only unfortunate thing here is your inability to comprehend what the Allies' war aims actually were and what their opinions towards German officialdom was.

The Allies set up German administrations almost immediately in the areas they controlled. There was never any doubt that a German government or governments would eventually be set-up.

What you're failing to comprehend is that no Allied government in 1945 with the guns still warm is going to set up a German government with even the slightest hint of Nazis in it, let alone a government whose chief was appointed to that position by Hitler's last will and testament.

In my opinions, Allied opinions and aims are variable things as they could be changed following the situation encountered. Just look at how the Allied agree to maintain the Emperor in Japan as a form of government after they had twice bombed Japan with an atomic bomb. I fail to see the reason why the Allied could not change their policy on Germany if they can with Japan. Historically speaking, after few years it was proven that the Allied could change their mind with Germany by allowing it Marshall Plan for rebuilding.

Well regarding his own appointment by Hitler, I think it was just because Hitler had no other successor in mind after Himmler and Goering betrayed him. In any other case, I am option to other leader instead Doenitz.
 
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In the face of public the Allied might try to maintain their stance over Germans, but politically on the back room why do you think the US went so far as to prioritize resources and giving security clearances to German scientists that previously worked under the Nazi without any question asked.

Are you seriously comparing Operation Paperclip with a post-war German government? Cannot you not even comprehend that Operation Paperclip worked because the Allied governments could hide the German scientists involved and the Allies cannot hide a German government?


Any source which I could read on regarding his views?

Not that it will help because you'll ignore the facts, but start with The Court of the Red Tsar by Montefiore.

Just look at how the Allied agree to maintain the Emperor in Japan as a form of government after they had twice bombed Japan with an atomic bomb.

The Allies made that decision after occupying Japan and devising a completely new system of government in which the Emperor played a purely ceremonial role.

I fail to see the reason why the Allied could not change their policy on Germany if they can with Japan.

That's not all you fail at.

The Allies did not change their policy with Japan. They made no promises regarding the Emperor before the surrender and allowed the Emperor after the surrender to remain only after completely changing his role in Japanese government and society. The Allies even forced the Emperor to deny his godhood.

Well regarding his own appointment by Hitler, I think it was just because Hitler had no other successor in mind after Himmler and Goering betrayed him.

It doesn't matter whether Hitler only had a choice between Doenitz and his dog Blondie. Once Hitler appoints Doenitz the German head of state, Doenitz' postwar political future is over.

In any other case, I am option to other leader instead Doenitz.

The Flensburg government derived what legitimacy it had from the Nazi government before it, so anyone associated with the Flensburg government is off the table. That's what you seemingly cannot understand. It's too soon after the war and the Nazi taint is too strong. Anyone who was prominent during the Nazi era cannot be chosen by the Allies.
 
Are you seriously comparing Operation Paperclip with a post-war German government? Cannot you not even comprehend that Operation Paperclip worked because the Allied governments could hide the German scientists involved and the Allies cannot hide a German government?

I'm responding to the statment you have stated from your previous post as that the Allied are not going to work or cooperate with any Germans related to Nazi. The Allied, a victors they are, could always hide the true fact behind creating a German government if they want to do so.

Not that it will help because you'll ignore the facts, but start with The Court of the Red Tsar by Montefiore.
Don Lardo, I'm bemused, why are you suddenly accusing in personal that I will ignore the facts? Please remember that this is an Alternate History discussion, which mean I could point out or question several points that you have posted for the sake of discussion. And that I have my own opinion and views that might differ from you. I will accept corrections and a valid argument, but I could also offer a counter-argument. That does not mean I will ignore the facts. Your tone is just such you are lecturing and looking down upon me and that is not necessary at all. ;):)

The Allies made that decision after occupying Japan and devising a completely new system of government in which the Emperor played a purely ceremonial role.

The Allies did not change their policy with Japan. They made no promises regarding the Emperor before the surrender and allowed the Emperor after the surrender to remain only after completely changing his role in Japanese government and society. The Allies even forced the Emperor to deny his godhood.

It doesn't matter whether Hitler only had a choice between Doenitz and his dog Blondie. Once Hitler appoints Doenitz the German head of state, Doenitz' postwar political future is over.
The Flensburg government derived what legitimacy it had from the Nazi government before it, so anyone associated with the Flensburg government is off the table. That's what you seemingly cannot understand. It's too soon after the war and the Nazi taint is too strong. Anyone who was prominent during the Nazi era cannot be chosen by the Allies.
But still nevertheless of the Allied policy you're talking about, the Allied did not conduct an investigation questioning whether the Emperor had committed any crime at all in the war.

I understand the point clearly about Doenitz government being derived from Nazi government, in fact I have already said before that I am also open to other form of German government, in fact I have suggested different form of government led by different figure from Doenitz.
 
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