Possibility of a successful Norse American colony

We all the Norse landed and tried to settle Newfoundland(?) but the natives fought them off. Could they keep the peace and successfully colonize North America?
 

dead_wolf

Banned
Well the Norse did sail quite a bit further south than Vinland, e.g. Markland, Hvutramannaland, but they didn't have any reason to settle those areas.

Further it's not as if there was a large Norse settlement in Vinland or even Greenland to begin with. Remember these were Norse from Iceland, and the settlements were essentially resource extraction colonies; lumber mostly, which the Icelanders were desperately short of. So they had no reason to go south.

Beyond that though they'd have to go really, really, really far south to completely escape the Little Ice Age - we know settlements as far south as Jamestown Virginia were within its reach in 1608 at the height of the freeze.

So you'd need a Norse population several magnitudes larger in scale, you'd need them to sail far further south than they'd gone IOTL, you'd need to settle in these more southern latitudes, you'd need to settle them in such large numbers as to not only survive but thrive, and you'd need them to hang out against all the odds for at least a few centuries to preempt later European discovery and colonization efforts. This is a very, very tall order and the first condition makes it borderline ASB.
 
Well the Norse did sail quite a bit further south than Vinland, e.g. Markland, Hvutramannaland, but they didn't have any reason to settle those areas.

Also a bit further North.

Further it's not as if there was a large Norse settlement in Vinland or even Greenland to begin with. Remember these were Norse from Iceland, and the settlements were essentially resource extraction colonies; lumber mostly, which the Icelanders were desperately short of. So they had no reason to go south.

?? There were about 5,000 Norse in Greenland at its heyday, and Greenland did not have trees; too far above the timber line.

Beyond that though they'd have to go really, really, really far south to completely escape the Little Ice Age - we know settlements as far south as Jamestown Virginia were within its reach in 1608 at the height of the freeze.

I don't follow. The Iroquois, Huron, etc. lived in New York and Canada and had no problem with agriculture. The Little Ice Age did not lead to glaciers pouring south to doom all in America.
 
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Here's an odd observation: The Pope was convinced that the Greenlanders had, by the 14th and 15th century, reverted to Norse paganism. Does that sound plausible? Or is this a reflection of rumors and conjecture?
 
Here's an odd observation: The Pope was convinced that the Greenlanders had, by the 14th and 15th century, reverted to Norse paganism. Does that sound plausible? Or is this a reflection of rumors and conjecture?

Meh, it was more like the Pope (and even the Archbishop of Nidaros, who is much closer to Greenland) sort of just forgot about them. After the death of Arni (the penultimate bishop of Gardar in Greenland), it took 21 years for a successor to arrive. Due to the decreasing quality of Greenland's tributes (colder weather means all men needed to help with farming, instead of some being free to travel far north in the summer and hunt walrus and bear), the Greenlanders may not have been viewed as important anymore by the formerly wealthy Archbishop. Additionally, the Plague in Europe meant that there was no time or will to keep track of events so far away.

Probably the rumor of them returning to the native religion was half-truth. No doubt some very hard-pressed and initially cynical families did start praying to Odin and Thor instead of Jesus, and stopped sending tribute to Gardar; however, Christianity was well ingrained, and had taken on some aspects of Norse culture/tradition anyways, so it wasn't particularly alien to the Greenlanders. More likely the majority's beliefs became more heretical as churches fell due to strong winds, holy books crumbled due to age and water damage, and the only priests left were relatively uneducated and probably couldn't even understand Latin.
 
We all the Norse landed and tried to settle Newfoundland(?) but the natives fought them off. Could they keep the peace and successfully colonize North America?

I think the biggest thing is you need to do is give them a reason to continue to try colonizing, remember that the first post-Columbus settlements didn't survive either, especially the English and French ones. Give them a good enough reason to keep trying, and human stubbornness will account for a lot, it still won't be easy but it may be enough to make it plausible.
 
If the Greenlanders would have eaten fish (there are remarkably few fish bones found in their dumps) then they could have fled Greenland for that island south of Newfoundland. St. Pierre didn't have much of a native population that I know of, at least it didn't when the French arrived. I'm sure the Greenlanders could have conquered it (since it never occurs to vikings to try an establish peaceful contact with their neighbors). If they really took up fishing, they could work the Grand Banks and have a population explosion to spill over on other islands off the NE coast of North America.

I say islands instead of mainland since it appeared that the Greenlanders didn't want to have any contact with Stone Age tribes.
 
What if the Russian dukes are more aggressive and push into Norse territory and in a effort to survive they try to colonize NA
 
If the Greenlanders would have eaten fish (there are remarkably few fish bones found in their dumps) then they could have fled Greenland for that island south of Newfoundland.

Hmm, I thought there was a lot of evidence that they did, after the decline and starvations began and their livestock began dying too quickly to be replaced. Then again the men of Herjolfsnes (the furthest eastern extreme of the Eastern Settlement, at the southern tip of Greenland) apparently did eat almost exclusively fish, whale, and seal; however, the lives and settlements at places like Gardar, Brattahlid, and Undir Hofdi (Vatna Hverfi district) are of course better preserved and more numerous.

Eastern%20Settlement%20(Large).jpg
 
I'm sure there is something, the problem will be coming up with it, because there is a reason history happened the way it did so you are probably going to have to get creative with the POD.
 
Is there any way they could put a priority on colonization?

Nah, just eking out a survival on Greenland occupied enough of their time during the productive months. An earlier POD of greater European demand for polar bear pelts and walrus tusks might result in more widespread hunting, and greater exploration, and eventual settlement due to exile or (eventual) climate change. The Norse would notice that Vinland and Markland are nicer in the summer than Greenland is, and decide to move there--if there is abundant game and the like. Though I'm not sure they'd abandon Greenland altogether, as it provides as a trading point for ships headed to and from Europe. They would have to abandon Greenland eventually, though.
 
If the Greenlanders would have eaten fish (there are remarkably few fish bones found in their dumps)

Sigh. We know Icelanders eat fish. Hell, they will eat rotting shark. We know Scandinavians also eat fish.

Jared Diamond's myths will never die.

(since it never occurs to vikings to try an establish peaceful contact with their neighbors).

They managed it in Russia, no?

Vikings are not a monotholic group; they will war at times, trade at times.
 
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