Possibility of a NAZI invasion of U.S.

:mad:
It's the old joke I heard WA being told over and over back here between New Braunfels and Fredricksburg and the King Wilhelm district of San Antonio: Between Eisenhauer and Niemitz, Wilhelm Boeing's bombers and Henry Kaiser's battleships and our Sherman tanks. Us Germans will win this war from here all the way to Berlin..... A bit off topic, but still

I know what you mean by this, but it's fun to think of it the other way too:

Why are all of our glorious victories happening closer and closer to Berlin?

:p
 
A conventional invasion would never succeed, so it would have to be done by guile.
The easiest way for Nazi Germany to gain a toe-hold on Continental USA is to remind the CSA about how they share common attitudes towards "untermensch" (Africans), trade unionists and communists. Both Germany and CSA had suffered humiliating military defeats within living memory.
Then Nazi politicians would need to secure supply lines to invade beyond the Appalachian Mountains.
Invading Nazis would need to source food, petroleum, horses, etc. from friendly CSA states.
 
A conventional invasion would never succeed, so it would have to be done by guile.
The easiest way for Nazi Germany to gain a toe-hold on Continental USA is to remind the CSA about how they share common attitudes towards "untermensch" (Africans), trade unionists and communists. Both Germany and CSA had suffered humiliating military defeats within living memory.
Then Nazi politicians would need to secure supply lines to invade beyond the Appalachian Mountains.
Invading Nazis would need to source food, petroleum, horses, etc. from friendly CSA states.
The CSA hadn't existed for 80 years, and Southerners had no interest in collaborating with a foreign power. And even if they did, what are they going to do? Secede? The US marches in before the Nazis even land and sends the rebel leaders to Old Sparky. Invite the Nazis in? Same thing.
 
As for where the Nazis get north American land...

If we posit the "Lightning in the Night" scenario (the only even vaguely serious Nazi's Invade America book I'm aware of...and even it is a tom-clancy-esque propaganda piece).

In that June, 1940 book, England surrenders on Sept 17, 1940, including its navy, after Nazi's (repeatedy?) use chemical weapons on London, killing tens, maybe hundreds of thousands, including the Royal Family as several MPs. The headline in the book is "Brits surrender Navy to save civilian lives!" (My assumption is the use of chemical weapons...not much else might get britain to surrender. If only because it's easier to deliver chemical weapon to london from calais than it is to get them to germany from kent)

Part of the peace treaty includes signing over several colonies in Africa and the Americas from Britain, Holland, Denmark, and France to the Germans: Jamaica, British Guyana, Tanzania, Rhodesia (again German East Africa), French West Africa, Greenland, Iceland, the Falklands, British Virgin Islands, etc.

When the Monroe Doctrine is suggested, Germany states 'these aren't new colonies, they've just changed ownership.' and with help from strongly isolationist sentiment, the US government buys it. British Guyana and Jamaica are excellent places to start influencing paces like Venezuela and Brazil.

Right, except the UK has lots of chemical weapons itself, and a stockpile of Anthrax as well. This is why in OTL London was NOT gassed (although the British government took steps in case of that contingency, drilling the population in how to respond to gas attacks and gave them masks), because the Nazi's knew the UK would retaliate in kind with chemical and biological weapons. So again, chemical weapons will not cause a UK surrender, all they will cause is massive casualties on both sides, particularly for the Germans once the British mobilize and deploy their anthrax stocks (see: Operation Vegetarian).

Even if the UK can be brought to terms and cedes its empire (which would require an abject defeat because Germany really has no ability to actually conquer the British colonies), how would Germany defend it, IT HAS NO SURFACE NAVY! And the monroe doctrine specifically stipulates against the changing of hands of American colonies between European powers so the US would act to prevent Germany taking over British colonies in south America, and Germany cant do anything about it.

Even the isolationist Americans aren't fools, the Americas are firmly an sphere of American influence and they certainly wouldn't be willing to share that area with a hostile aggressive power like Nazi Germany.

AND even if the Germans somehow did manage to get British Guyana that's still useless for getting any sort of foothold in the US, look at how far an army would have to travel, including getting by the panama canal which is under American control. South America simply wont work as a staging base for an invasion of North America, it is almost as hard to get an army from South America to the US as it is to go from Europe.

So to repeat: TOTAL 100% ASB!!!!!!!!
 
Last edited:
Assuming that the 3rd Reich was more victorious in Europe, was there any realistic chance of them later coming after the continental United States? How realistic is the possibility of this as portrayed in such timelines as 'The Man in the High Castle', in which both Japan and Germany manage to successfully invade and conquer the mainland U.S.A. ? Personally, I have doubts that it would have been anywhere near so successful if it had happened at all, but first and foremost I would like to discuss the possibility of an invasion occurring at all.

Damn near impossible. Assume that FDR retires in 1940, and fanatical isolationist Burton Wheeler becomes President. All U.S. support to the Allies is cut off. The Axis conquers the whole of the Old World. Brazil, Argentina, and other South American countries get on the fascist bandwagon.

But in 1945, Wheeler is replaced by an anti-Axis hawk, and the U.S. goes to war. Could Germany and its Allies reach the U.S.?

Even in this situation, I'm not at all convinced they could. The U.S. would have an enormous fleet. The combined Axis could match it - maybe - but never achieve the superiority in American coastal waters needed for an amphibious invasion from the open ocean.

So that leaves a march up Central America, from Panama to Mexico, which is problematic. Or an island-hopping campaign through the Antilles to Florida; also problematic.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
There's the minor historical reality that:

This thread still has a beating heart? Not doeable or feasible outside of pissing the USA off even more .. Or outside of the Germans having an undersea army that breathes water and swims with fish.. They couldn't even invade England ..melt alone make it over the Atlantic ...

There's the minor historical reality that in economic terms, the powers stacked up as follows (in 1938) in terms of total industrial potential (UK in 1900 being 100):

US - 528
GE - 214
UK - 181
USSR - 152
JA - 88
FR - 74
IT - 46

Relative shares of world manufacturing output:
US - 31.4
GE - 12.7
UK - 10.7
USSR - 9
FR - 4.4
IT - 2.8

My personal favorite - steel production:
US - 28.8 million tons;
GE - 23.2
USSR - 18
UK - 10.5
JA - 7
FR - 6.1
IT - 2.3

Population:
USSR - 180.6 million
US - 138.3
JA - 72.2
GE - 68.5
UK - 47.6
IT - 43.8
FR - 41.9

All of the above is from Kennedy's The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers.

There's no way, essentially, for ANY Western Hemisphere or European power to "invade" a great power in the other hemisphere in the past umpteen decades, absent a coalition in the "target" hemisphere, and such a coalition was never in the cards for Germany in the Western Hemisphere.

Best,
 
Isolationism does not mean "ignore everything more than 3nm off the US shore". OTL when France fell the USA made it pretty clear that French (Vichy) colonies in the Western Hemisphere would not be permitted to have ANY German presence. Remember the USA did occupy Greenland, and "took over" Iceland from the UK even before Pearl Harbor. There were plans for the US to land Marines on the Azores to prevent them becoming a Nazi base.

Even the most "isolationist" of US politicians in the late 1930's and early 1940's would not have tolerated a Nazi presence in the Western Hemisphere that amounted to anything. Certainly pulling down the tricolor or Union flag and replacing it with the swastika anywhere in the Western Hemisphere would be a no-no. The USA could easily prevent any colonial transfers in its backyard, of course what happened in Africa or elsewhere is another story. Huge pressure could be applied to South American countries to limit their granting bases etc to the Nazis, and frankly any attempts to infiltrate Central America will be stomped on (remember the US owns the Panama Canal and considers the defense of the canal as vital). As noted, even making Argentina a full fledged Nazi ally really doesn't help invade the USA - the closer they get with any military bases the more the US will react.

I remember reading a pulp type book from the early 40's where Britain was defeated and the Nazis invade the USA via Hudson's Bay and are stopped in New England (by "minutemen" equivalents). Just an interesting comment on this meme - and for the "Sealion" meme you should read "The Riddle of the Sands" which deals with the planning for a German invasion of Britain in the WWI era (among others).
 
Even less likely than Japan being able to invade and occupy Australia. As was stated before, Germany just does not have the navy, airforce, industry nor manpower to ever launch an invasion on the east coast.
 
Right, except the UK has lots of chemical weapons itself, and a stockpile of Anthrax as well

Not in 1940. In 1940 the germans have limited quanties of Sarin a significant stockpiles of Tabun, while the british hand only phosgene and yprite. The anthrax production was still in the future. With the available stockpiles, germans can kill millions of people in England (I might write down in detail the whole thing).
 
The Conroy novel where the Germans (in 1920) have buddied with Mexico and build up a large force there etc and invade the USA is pretty ASB but it shows the only way an invasion can work.

Conroy wrote another one (North Reich) where the Germans somehow defeated Britain and part of the peace treaty was that the Nazis got to occupy eastern Canada (!!), and before anyone in the USA could say anything about it, the Germans sneakily landed a bunch of troops from merchant ships, and it was a done deal. Naturally, the Germans then plot the invasion of American and promptly get stomped. Of course, this is even more ASB than '1920', and seems to be mostly a thought experiment of 'hey, let's get the Germans and Americans fighting each other on US soil"...
 
Not in 1940. In 1940 the germans have limited quanties of Sarin a significant stockpiles of Tabun, while the british hand only phosgene and yprite. The anthrax production was still in the future. With the available stockpiles, germans can kill millions of people in England (I might write down in detail the whole thing).


The Germans certainly had the initial lead in gas warfare, however the UK had some pretty strong contingency plans in place for how to survive a gas attack, as it was expected after France fell, and they certainly had the chemical weapons to strike back (and planned to use mustard gas on any invasion beach the Germans came ashore on), which was exactly why the Germans did not use chemical weapons, not becuase Hitler had some sort of aversion to it, but because it would have been tit for tat and would not have decided the conflict. Before you write your TL I would suggest that you look at the literally dozens of discussions on this site about whether AH Chemical warfare in WW2. It really wasn't the magic bullet you think it is.

As to the Anthrax by the fall of France the UK had a stockpile of a very dangerous strain of Anthrax and were testing out delivery systems (Guinard Islands tests were in 1942 and were done to test the potency of their stock of anthrax). True the actual nightmarish "Anthrax bombs" arrived much later, but even a rushed "Vegetarian" style (ie. with out an an aroselized delivery system) anthrax response would have been pretty damaging.
 
Top