Possibility of a German aircraft carrier

Cook: they still don't have the experience of carrier ops, a strong tradition of naval aviation, a pool of experienced pilots, etc. As Bill will probably mention, every pilot (esp instructors) you train for the carrier is one less for the Luftwaffe. Most importantly, Goring will not allow such a number of aircraft to be under anyone's control but his own. We all know Donitz had to go to Hitler for just one maritime recon squadron IOTL.
 
You don’t think that given a few years of actual commitment to the project they couldn’t have got to the point of having a German equivalent of an escort carrier?

And for those criticising various navalised aircraft variants, remember that those were prototypes at best. You learn what’s wrong by crashing prototypes remember.

I am the first one to admit they could build something or commission Graf Zeppelin, the problem with the ME-109 cannot be understated though. You would perhaps need a POD of Kurt Tank's design being selected originally or use my POD from the Brinkmann meatgrinder where Hitler gets furious at the number of landing accidents in the ME-109 so that it gets phased out(especially from carrier aviation where it would be an automatic disaster)

I wouldn't trust the landing gear of a 109 landing on a carrier in calm seas with no winds, let alone the rough and tumble of ATLANTIC carrier ops

This is a plane that had its undercarriage frequently fall apart on non moving runways without arrestor wires!

If they commission Graf Zeppelin, and whilst she is working up with ME-109's doing practice landings on her deck, Hitler will have to strike the vessel because the accident ratio even in a training environment with that landing gearis going to be in the 20 percent range!
 
You don’t think that given a few years of actual commitment to the project they couldn’t have got to the point of having a German equivalent of an escort carrier?

Sure, maybe a few years can get an escort carrier. Said ship will most likely be slow, carry a small, disfunctional airwing, and be a sitting duck for the new British carriers commissioned specifically to eliminate it from the balance of naval power.


And for those criticising various navalised aircraft variants, remember that those were prototypes at best. You learn what’s wrong by crashing prototypes remember.

Except Germany doesn't really have the time or resources to learn like this. bear in mind that they are basically inventing carrier doctrine as they go, while working with a bunch of shoddy aircraft.
 
Cook: they still don't have the experience of carrier ops, a strong tradition of naval aviation, a pool of experienced pilots, etc. As Bill will probably mention, every pilot (esp instructors) you train for the carrier is one less for the Luftwaffe. Most importantly, Goring will not allow such a number of aircraft to be under anyone's control but his own. We all know Donitz had to go to Hitler for just one maritime recon squadron IOTL.

To be fair RB there where 35 pilots who went through an intense training program to get qualified for Graf Zeppelin in OTL. (They did 900 or 1800 (the sources come up with both numbers, I tend to think 900 is the right number) practice landings)

practice landings in the baltic: involved painting an outline of Graf Zeppelin's flight deck on the airfield along with installing arrestor wires, and the pilots where made to fly in horrendous weather conditions to simulate cross winds and pitching they would have to deal with in an actual carrier op

Graf Zeppelin's compliment was to be pretty small and the aircraft where just slightly navalized Luftwaffe staples, Goering wouldn't be sacrificing much, hell Hitler might even keep them under Luftwaffe command
 
There's still the issue of doctrine. If anything, the German carrier aircraft would be superior to anything the RN has until 1941. IIRC from previous discussions a Martlet doesn't come out on top with a 109 or 190.
 

Cook

Banned
Sure, maybe a few years can get an escort carrier. Said ship will most likely be slow, carry a small, disfunctional airwing, and be a sitting duck for the new British carriers commissioned specifically to eliminate it from the balance of naval power.

35Knots doesn’t strike me as slow.

They had the ship, they just never finished fitout.
 

Cook

Banned
Escort carriers are, as a rule, several knots slower than full-sized carriers.

I’m talking about the Graf Zeppelin being used in the only role that made any sense; as an escort for Bismarck and other convoy raiders to provide air cover and maybe a small strike capability.
 

Cook

Banned
Cook: they still don't have the experience of carrier ops, a strong tradition of naval aviation, a pool of experienced pilots, etc. As Bill will probably mention, every pilot (esp instructors) you train for the carrier is one less for the Luftwaffe. Most importantly, Goring will not allow such a number of aircraft to be under anyone's control but his own. We all know Donitz had to go to Hitler for just one maritime recon squadron IOTL.

Noted.

But I’m not proposing an attack carrier, just an escort with perhaps a small strike element. And small is all any of them seemed to have in the Atlantic in those first few years of war.

If it just comes down to arguments and dick measuring competitions within the Nazi high command then it is no longer ASB and is in the realm of possibility. It then becomes a prioritisation issue.
 
There's still the issue of doctrine. If anything, the German carrier aircraft would be superior to anything the RN has until 1941. IIRC from previous discussions a Martlet doesn't come out on top with a 109 or 190.

Your assuming the RN just sits there....
There is no technical reason the SeaFire cant be deployed a lot earlier, except the Air Marshals (its a toss-up which were worse, them or Goring..:p).

Not the best carrier fighter, but a match for the navalised german ones
 
I’m talking about the Graf Zeppelin being used in the only role that made any sense; as an escort for Bismarck and other convoy raiders to provide air cover and maybe a small strike capability.

Using capital ships (battlewagons and carriers) for commerce raiding is a very very stupid idea. Not that they shouldn't pick off targets of opportunity, but building missions around that notion is insane. No other Navy on earth, including ones that where run incompetently or had really crazy out of the box ideas had even the slightest thought of wasting precious and expensive super ships on anti freighter missions.

Graf Zeppelin and Bismarck if in existance together should be used to engage the Royal Navy and or act as a fleet in being. Commerce raiding is the province of U-boats and maybe the occassional cruiser.
 
There is a reason that Graf Zeppelin never got finished. They didnt have the resources as German naval construction was never a priority (20,000 naval construction workers were conscripted into the Wehrmacht for Barbarossa). Hitler was simply never sea-minded. And the Navy didn't have an equivalent of Goering in the Senior Nazi elite.

It's also worth remembering that Germany wasn't put on a full war-production footing until it was far too late (Hitler apparently didn't want the German people's living standards to fall); probably their single biggest mistake away from the battlefield (their aircraft industry didn't reach full production capacity until 1944)

Germany always planned on the assumption that WW2 doesn't break out until 1944 (they never dreamed that Britain and France would go to war over Poland).

It was suggested that Graf Zep accompany Bismarck (this has come up on a regular basis since the war). Basically, in Spring 1941, either Bismarck is ready for sea or Graf Zeppelin, but not both, unless there is a major change in priorities within the German command structure. Which, ironically, is the only way the Germans have a chance of winning the war.

Also, if the Germans complete and commission Graf Zep, they still have to get it out of the North Sea, even if they are prepared to risk it (Bismarck basically got lucky). I don't think Tirpitz ever got into the Atlantic! Plus the British would have tried even harder to sink the Graf Zep then they did the Tirpitz.

Finally, it should be mentioned that naval experts have said that the Graf Zep was really badly designed (can't remember the details, but they should be on the naval websites)
 
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