Portuguese Aircraft Carrier?

Perhaps this was the 'carrier'?
***
Spain had its own highly ambitious naval construction program, incidentally.

This is true. I remember reading that Franco intended to have battleships built, either designed or made by the Italians, as little as a year after the Spanish Civil War ended. Battlecruisers were also proposed for construction. But due to WWII these plans never came to fruition.

That's beside the point though. Someone REALLY needs to go find a source on this Portuguese carrier/escort carrier/seaplane tender. Now.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
This is true. I remember reading that Franco intended to have battleships built, either designed or made by the Italians, as little as a year after the Spanish Civil War ended. Battlecruisers were also proposed for construction. But due to WWII these plans never came to fruition.

That's beside the point though. Someone REALLY needs to go find a source on this Portuguese carrier/escort carrier/seaplane tender. Now.

Do you speak Portuguese? I bet the documents you need have not been translated. Also might try to use Google, but use portuguese words.
 
Nevermind. It appears that we have found our Portuguese Carrier after all. What a letdown.

http://warshipsresearch.blogspot.com/2011/11/projected-portuguese-seaplane-tender.html?m=1

But this isn't the Guanza, which leaves a little room for speculation. Of course, the Guanza could just be a destroyer or another ship that was also part of Portugals naval reconstruction.

Since we have now debunked this myth of a powerful Portuguese navy, lets focus on the Spanish navy. Specifically, what would have happened if Spain had acquired some true battleships and/or Battlecruisers.
 
Nevermind. It appears that we have found our Portuguese Carrier after all. What a letdown.

http://warshipsresearch.blogspot.com/2011/11/projected-portuguese-seaplane-tender.html?m=1

But this isn't the Guanza, which leaves a little room for speculation. Of course, the Guanza could just be a destroyer or another ship that was also part of Portugals naval reconstruction.

Since we have now debunked this myth of a powerful Portuguese navy, lets focus on the Spanish navy. Specifically, what would have happened if Spain had acquired some true battleships and/or Battlecruisers.

Before we throw out the idea altogether, can we discuss AdA's idea of American fleet carrier castoffs?

How viable were the Essex carriers, SCB or otherwise, for a second-class power? They're a heck of a lot bigger than the British castoffs that I've heard of. Could Spain or the Dutch, let alone the Portugese, possibly afford to field them if the Americans were willing to part with them cheap enough?
 
Before we throw out the idea altogether, can we discuss AdA's idea of American fleet carrier castoffs?

How viable were the Essex carriers, SCB or otherwise, for a second-class power? They're a heck of a lot bigger than the British castoffs that I've heard of. Could Spain or the Dutch, let alone the Portugese, possibly afford to field them if the Americans were willing to part with them cheap enough?

I doubt I'm the most knowledgeable person on this topic, but I have a couple doubts that the Portuguese would be able to use the carrier outside of a fleet in being. The extensive costs of fuel and aircraft, plus refurbishing/modernizing/angling the decks (depending on when the carriers are bought from the US) would probably make a fully operational Portuguese carrier group nothing less than a pipe dream.
 
After WW2 Salazar decides all efforts must go for empire defence. Instead of all this US paid Sabres and the used weapons for a full US style division Portugal got OTL as a trade off for the use of the lages base in Azores and for joining NATO the army and Airforce become light COIN forces and the navy is given an India deterrence mission. For at role the US give it a SCB upgraded Essex class. When the Indians do invade Goa, the Portuguese navy operating from Mozambique goes Viking style crazy on the Indian coastline, using it's Fury FJ-4 jets to strike on hit and run raids...

A lightly supported light carrier attacking the Indian coastline?

The Indian airforce likely sinks it.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Nevermind. It appears that we have found our Portuguese Carrier after all. What a letdown.

http://warshipsresearch.blogspot.com/2011/11/projected-portuguese-seaplane-tender.html?m=1

But this isn't the Guanza, which leaves a little room for speculation. Of course, the Guanza could just be a destroyer or another ship that was also part of Portugals naval reconstruction.

Since we have now debunked this myth of a powerful Portuguese navy, lets focus on the Spanish navy. Specifically, what would have happened if Spain had acquired some true battleships and/or Battlecruisers.

It looks about right. This ship would have been useful, and much cheaper than a CVL. It would provide good anti-submarine platform, it could do some merchant raiding, and it would be a good scout for a group of light cruisers.
 
How viable were the Essex carriers, SCB or otherwise, for a second-class power?
Put it this way: At various times in the 1960s and 70s both the UK and Australia were offered Essex class vessels as replacements for the cancelled CVA-01 class and HMAS Melbourne respectively. In both cases the offer was turned down in part due to unsustainable crew numbers (in the Australian case 1,300 including airgroup for the CVL vs 2,000 plus just counting the ship's crew for an Essex).

So, long story short, I think no, or at least not without gutting the rest of the navy, is the right answer.
 
Outlandish

Like I said on my original post, regarding the 1930 fleet program, there was no money even for half that program, so a Carrier was impossible.
But there could be a few ASB ways to get one.
regarding the "less crazy" Essex SCB-125 one, the ship would have been a trade off for the (use of bases in the) Azores, the manning issues are way less relevant in a country with 2 to 3 years mandatory military service (In the navy it was longer, and people were paid almost nothing for the duration) and with (at the time), a large merchant/Fishing fleet. This would still mean that the navy would get all the money, with the Army becoming de facto a ligh COIN force.
Basically the carriers only use would be as a "force in being" to try to dissuade India from attacking Goa, and if they did attack it would to be used in a Tom Clancy like level of credibility. It could be loaded only with fighter bombers, and provided it was not sunk by a submarine it would be able to meet incoming raids with a sreen of a few dozen FJ-4 Fury's. Giving that the IAF was still evolving in 1961, It could be fun seing the Fury's mixing it with Vampires, Ouragans and the freshly arrived Hunters. If we want to go really wild, we could give the portuguese Essex (Called, of course, the Vasco da Gama) a F8 Crusader Air Group, and then the Indians would really be in trouble...
It's ASB, but fun...
 
feeding the bats

Just in case somebody wants to have a go at it, here's a tentative portuguese SAG for retaliatory strikes against India

CV - Vasco da Gama
VAsco da Gama Airgroup:
1 Sqdr of F8D Crusaders
2 Sqdr of FJ-4B Furys
1 Sqdr of Gruman Tracker/Tracer ASW and AEW

4 Type 15P FF ASW (Converted WW2 DD along the lines of Brit Type 15 conversions)
4 Guppy class SSK
 
Just in case somebody wants to have a go at it, here's a tentative portuguese SAG for retaliatory strikes against India

CV - Vasco da Gama
VAsco da Gama Airgroup:
1 Sqdr of F8D Crusaders
2 Sqdr of FJ-4B Furys
1 Sqdr of Gruman Tracker/Tracer ASW and AEW

4 Type 15P FF ASW (Converted WW2 DD along the lines of Brit Type 15 conversions)
4 Guppy class SSK

Assuming they come up with this force and dispatch it to chastise the Indians, just how do they maintain it on station? They don't have a base nearer than Mozambique, which is quite a haul, and no fleet replenishment vessels or oilers with the force.

Even if this is remedied, so what? The most they can do is harass the Indians; a little property damage and a few ships sunk isn't going to persuade the Indians to hand Goa back. And, as pointed out above, the IAF and Indian Navy are sure to return the compliment. Damage the carrier and the Portuguese are out of business. Sink a frigate or two and the force becomes very vulnerable to submarine attack. The Portuguese are very much at a disadvantage in that contest.
 
Honor and international standing

There is no way the portuguese could have stayed in India against the will of the Indians. The British Empire had to give India up, so what could Portugal do? Since this is admitidly and selfconfessdly a pure ASB for fun post, the SAG would be out to deliver some face saving punitive demage. They would launch a couple of strikes, blow some stuff up, pull back to Mozambique and hope they had done something to help preserve the rest of the empire and the credibility of the fascist regime.
 
Nevermind. It appears that we have found our Portuguese Carrier after all. What a letdown.

http://warshipsresearch.blogspot.com/2011/11/projected-portuguese-seaplane-tender.html?m=1

But this isn't the Guanza, which leaves a little room for speculation. Of course, the Guanza could just be a destroyer or another ship that was also part of Portugals naval reconstruction.

Since we have now debunked this myth of a powerful Portuguese navy, lets focus on the Spanish navy. Specifically, what would have happened if Spain had acquired some true battleships and/or Battlecruisers.

The Spanish did operate 'true' battleships IMHO; the Espana class. :D
Looking at when they were laid down (first one in 1909) and designs were pretty much finalised, they are roughly comparable (although smaller) to HMS Neptune, a RN battleship also laid down in 1909.

For the rest it seems as if every time the Spanish plan a new class of battleships a world war starts. Reminds me of the Dutch, who had the same lousy planning. ;)

I'd think that more or newer ships wouldn't make much difference. The Spanish still won't join WWII on the Axis (or Allied) side.

It could be loaded only with fighter bombers, and provided it was not sunk by a submarine it would be able to meet incoming raids with a sreen of a few dozen FJ-4 Fury's. Giving that the IAF was still evolving in 1961, It could be fun seing the Fury's mixing it with Vampires, Ouragans and the freshly arrived Hunters. If we want to go really wild, we could give the portuguese Essex (Called, of course, the Vasco da Gama) a F8 Crusader Air Group, and then the Indians would really be in trouble...
It's ASB, but fun...

Apart from what other posters already said, if you station 2 squadrons of fighterbombers on a carrier, you're not going to have a larger CAP then say 6 aircraft at most. It's all but impossible, especially without AEW, to have 100% of your CAG up and around at the perfect timing to intercept an attacker.
To make matters worse, the CAG and the carrier will probably be somewhat of a white elephant in the Portuguese navy, which can't bode much good for the maintenance of said aircraft and ship. I'd expect at least half the CAG to be down for maintenance at any time, leaving you with a CAP of no more then two or three aircraft...

So this ends as Flocculencio said:
A lightly supported light carrier attacking the Indian coastline?

The Indian airforce likely sinks it.
 
More fighters than bombers

Those fighter bombers are basically navalized sabres, which doesn't bode well for Indian fighters that plan to tangle with them. Plus having tracers gives early warning, increasing CAP effectiveness. So you can have all squadrons contributing to CAP, and the Portuguese Air Force had a superb maintenance record with their OTL sabres, so reediness rates should be up to USN level.
Each time the carrier approaches India it will have at best a 50/50 chance of making it back, but this is not a normal mission. Let't give them luck, two successful sorties, and back to Lisbon with tall stories. India still has Goa, Portuguese POW there get even worst conditions, but Salazar gets a LEP for it's obsolete regime...

The COIN specialised Army will help with that...
 
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