Portugal in exile ?

Brazilian Empire emerged from (between other things) Portugal being invaded by Napoleon. But what would happen in case of Portuguese Revolution, or more precisely, could the King of Portugal do the same things and sail to Brazil ? And what would happen to the colonies ? How important would the fracture in the Lusophone world ?
 
I don't see why not. Of course, there's always the option of the Azores or Madeira if that seems preferable.
 

Lusitania

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It really depends on when the Portuguese revolution occurs. If it is while the Portuguese royal family was residing in Rio de Janeiro the Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil would of remained ruled from Rio and most if not all colonies and possessions would continue loyal to king.

If the revolution happens after 1822 then the king would of escaped to Azores or Madeira if he wanted to stay as king. Otherwise either flee to Britain or Brazil and become king in exile like in 1910.
 
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It really depends on when the Portuguese revolution occurs. If it is while the Portuguese royal family was residing in Rio de Janeiro the Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil would of remained ruled from Rio and most if not all colonies and possessions would continue loyal to king.

If the revolution happens after 1822 then the king would of escaped to Azores or Madeira if he wanted to stay as king. Otherwise either flee to Britain or Brazil and become king in exile like in 1910.

If it happens short after Vienna, but prior Brazilian Independance OTL, would the King be accepted as Emperor of Brazil and King of Portugal ?
 

Lusitania

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If it happens short after Vienna, but prior Brazilian Independance OTL, would the King be accepted as Emperor of Brazil and King of Portugal ?
The king was already the king of Portugal and Brazil. In 1807 Brazil had been elevated as equal to Portugal. Over time if Portugal remained a republic then the king would become only emperor of Brazil.
 
The Portuguese court flees to Rio and Napoleon establishes his dominance over Europe, Brazil is now Portugal-in-Exile.

Mainland Portugal would be divided between the French and Spanish (as planned IOTL), the UK would take Madeira and the Azores (as a part of the deal of transferring the court to Rio IOTL) and Brazil would inherit all the other Portuguese colonies by default. However, the Brits will soon be pissed about slavery and slave trade and will probably try much harder to stop it - one interesting side effect is that Brazil would probably be forced to end up slavery sooner.
 

Lusitania

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The Portuguese court flees to Rio and Napoleon establishes his dominance over Europe, Brazil is now Portugal-in-Exile.

Mainland Portugal would be divided between the French and Spanish (as planned IOTL), the UK would take Madeira and the Azores (as a part of the deal of transferring the court to Rio IOTL) and Brazil would inherit all the other Portuguese colonies by default. However, the Brits will soon be pissed about slavery and slave trade and will probably try much harder to stop it - one interesting side effect is that Brazil would probably be forced to end up slavery sooner.

While that is one possibility, the second which I think more plausible could of been following the defeat of France the returning soldiers to Portugal support and implement a republican government while the remaining nobles flee to Rio and Brazil.
 
The king was already the king of Portugal and Brazil. In 1807 Brazil had been elevated as equal to Portugal. Over time if Portugal remained a republic then the king would become only emperor of Brazil.
Small correction: Brazil was elevated to a kingdom only in 1815.
 
While that is one possibility, the second which I think more plausible could of been following the defeat of France the returning soldiers to Portugal support and implement a republican government while the remaining nobles flee to Rio and Brazil.

In the immediate post-Napoleonic environment? The forces of Reaction and the European Great Powers would come down on the Republicans like a ton of bricks.
 

Lusitania

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In the immediate post-Napoleonic environment? The forces of Reaction and the European Great Powers would come down on the Republicans like a ton of bricks.
So that leaves a republican could only appear in the mid 1800s which by then Brazil is independent and Portuguese royals would probable go to Britain as opposed to Brazil.

If we discussing Napoleon winning the war there never would of been a republican Portugal for the Iberian Peninsula would of been divided between France and French-Spain.
 
So that leaves a republican could only appear in the mid 1800s which by then Brazil is independent and Portuguese royals would probable go to Britain as opposed to Brazil.

If we discussing Napoleon winning the war there never would of been a republican Portugal for the Iberian Peninsula would of been divided between France and French-Spain.

Correct. In order for the former to work you'd need to establish a POD in which the union between Brazil and Portugal lasts longer. Your best bet in that reguard is for the Constitutionalists to moderate on their centralizing tendencies and maintain Brazil's separate legal entity status within the grander Imperial structure rather than trying to impose direct rule from Lisbon. Over the next few decades, their legal structures would increasing diverge as conservative policies were adopted by Rio and liberalism gains ground in Portugal, followed by increasing dependence of the government in Lisbon on revenue extracted from the colonial plantations. Eventually, the taxation vs. representation situation breaks out into a crisis (Maybe there's a push for expanding the franchise without changing the tax structure, or calls for land reforms in Portugal proper?) to the point the nobility, church, ect. end up victims of a mass confiscation of their property in Portugal proper (Similar to the dissolution of the monasteries in Spain), from which they retreat to Brazil.
 

Lusitania

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Correct. In order for the former to work you'd need to establish a POD in which the union between Brazil and Portugal lasts longer. Your best bet in that reguard is for the Constitutionalists to moderate on their centralizing tendencies and maintain Brazil's separate legal entity status within the grander Imperial structure rather than trying to impose direct rule from Lisbon. Over the next few decades, their legal structures would increasing diverge as conservative policies were adopted by Rio and liberalism gains ground in Portugal, followed by increasing dependence of the government in Lisbon on revenue extracted from the colonial plantations. Eventually, the taxation vs. representation situation breaks out into a crisis (Maybe there's a push for expanding the franchise without changing the tax structure, or calls for land reforms in Portugal proper?) to the point the nobility, church, ect. end up victims of a mass confiscation of their property in Portugal proper (Similar to the dissolution of the monasteries in Spain), from which they retreat to Brazil.

That could work but the problem was that by time Brazil is raised to equal kingdom in 1815 at which time independence sentiment had already taken root.
 
That could work but the problem was that by time Brazil is raised to equal kingdom in 1815 at which time independence sentiment had already taken root.

True, but you could very well delay an actual action towards independence for a few decades until it becomes more geopolitically viable. If Portugal goes Republican they could even claim to still be the "True" government of Portugal
 

Lusitania

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True, but you could very well delay an actual action towards independence for a few decades until it becomes more geopolitically viable. If Portugal goes Republican they could even claim to still be the "True" government of Portugal

To truly make Brazilians accept being part of Portugal you need to treat them as equal and not second class citizens which was what all Europeans regarded their colonials. I mean you can have the Portuguese kings stay in Brazil like iOTL and become emperor of Brazil. Example during pombal’s government industry was allowed to start in Brazil. Then during queen Maria I reign Lisbon spent a lot of effort to shut those down. That did not built trust between the two parts of the country.
 
While that is one possibility, the second which I think more plausible could of been following the defeat of France the returning soldiers to Portugal support and implement a republican government while the remaining nobles flee to Rio and Brazil.

Thats a possibility, but the Portuguese could also try to find another king elsewhere. Still, In my last post I was actually thinking in a Napoleonic victory scenario, what would remain of Mainland Portugal would be ruled by one of Nappy's brothers IIRC.

To truly make Brazilians accept being part of Portugal you need to treat them as equal and not second class citizens which was what all Europeans regarded their colonials. I mean you can have the Portuguese kings stay in Brazil like iOTL and become emperor of Brazil. Example during pombal’s government industry was allowed to start in Brazil. Then during queen Maria I reign Lisbon spent a lot of effort to shut those down. That did not built trust between the two parts of the country.

If we're to avoid 1820, our best shot is to kill Joao VI after 1815 and hope that Pedro start to write a Constitution in Rio soon enough and successfully manage to balance interests of both Portuguese and Brazilians.
 

Lusitania

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If we're to avoid 1820, our best shot is to kill Joao VI after 1815 and hope that Pedro start to write a Constitution in Rio soon enough and successfully manage to balance interests of both Portuguese and Brazilians.

The best bet is to Avoid both crazy Maria I and her dimwit son Joao IV becoming sovereigns since during their tenure the country suffered greatly. A more stable rulers is what is required from 1777 onward.
 
To truly make Brazilians accept being part of Portugal you need to treat them as equal and not second class citizens which was what all Europeans regarded their colonials. I mean you can have the Portuguese kings stay in Brazil like iOTL and become emperor of Brazil. Example during pombal’s government industry was allowed to start in Brazil. Then during queen Maria I reign Lisbon spent a lot of effort to shut those down. That did not built trust between the two parts of the country.

Exactly. So what you need to do is have a Constitution that guarantees Brazil's local governance and co-equal status within the Imperial structure to mitigate the effects of poor policy from Lisbon hurting them and create a sense of brotherhood between the Brazilian and Portugese elite.
 

Lusitania

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Exactly. So what you need to do is have a Constitution that guarantees Brazil's local governance and co-equal status within the Imperial structure to mitigate the effects of poor policy from Lisbon hurting them and create a sense of brotherhood between the Brazilian and Portugese elite.
Then you need to scrap the whole Maria I and João IV reign and you end up with my TL.
 
It really depends on when the Portuguese revolution occurs. If it is while the Portuguese royal family was residing in Rio de Janeiro the Kingdom of Portugal and Brazil would of remained ruled from Rio and most if not all colonies and possessions would continue loyal to king.

If the revolution happens after 1822 then the king would of escaped to Azores or Madeira if he wanted to stay as king. Otherwise either flee to Britain or Brazil and become king in exile like in 1910.
What would happen if he went to Mozambique or Angola ?
 
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