Portugal a colony of Brazil

I don't know much about the history of Brazil or Portugal, so this is just out of curiosity. I've read that there was a "United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil, and the Algarves" and that the Court of Portugal was in Brazil for a time. Could there have been a change in circumstances where the monarchy remains in Brazil long enough for Brazil to become the seat of the Empire?
 

Vuu

Banned
You'd have to have some sort of absolute horrid event for that, like black death 2. It would be a big prestige loss to permanently do so
 
I mean it basically did in the Napoleonic wars, and had things gone a little differently Brazil could have been an integral yet distinct part of a Lusophone empire.
 
Just as possible as the UK becoming a colony of the present day US: Not quite likely, as soon as both sides are just as big in economy and population the union would fall apart, as it did in 1822.
 
If during the Liberal Revolution of 1820, instead of going himself to Portugal to the Cortes there, Joao had sent Pedro to act as Prince Regent of Portugal in his father's stead, Portugal could have been a self-governing kingdom dominated by Brazil (not a colony, strictly speaking) for a few more decades - Pedro is a good, liberal regent, but he won't rule Portugal forever. Going from the centre of a multicontinental empire to a faraway colony is hard to take for any country, and Portugal will fight for independence. I imagine in such a scenario the Portuguese colonial empire would be Brazilian, which would be interesting.
 
If during the Liberal Revolution of 1820, instead of going himself to Portugal to the Cortes there, Joao had sent Pedro to act as Prince Regent of Portugal in his father's stead, Portugal could have been a self-governing kingdom dominated by Brazil (not a colony, strictly speaking) for a few more decades - Pedro is a good, liberal regent, but he won't rule Portugal forever. Going from the centre of a multicontinental empire to a faraway colony is hard to take for any country, and Portugal will fight for independence. I imagine in such a scenario the Portuguese colonial empire would be Brazilian, which would be interesting.

But then Pedro would be in Lisbon when his father the king dies in Rio. No way the Portuguese would accept his return to Brazil as a king. IMHO our best choice is King João dying earlier in Rio during the Napoleonic Wars, Pedro is crowned there and passes a liberal constitution before the Portuguese start revolting. Both nations can work somewhat autonomously while the king still seats in Rio.
 
But then Pedro would be in Lisbon when his father the king dies in Rio. No way the Portuguese would accept his return to Brazil as a king. IMHO our best choice is King João dying earlier in Rio during the Napoleonic Wars, Pedro is crowned there and passes a liberal constitution before the Portuguese start revolting. Both nations can work somewhat autonomously while the king still seats in Rio.
That's assuming Joao still dies as OTL. There are strong suspicions he was poisoned, although I haven't seen fingers pointed at any particular faction. IF he were indeed poisoned, and IF the poisoning party was Portugal based, it's possible Joao lives on.
 
If during the Liberal Revolution of 1820, instead of going himself to Portugal to the Cortes there, Joao had sent Pedro to act as Prince Regent of Portugal in his father's stead, Portugal could have been a self-governing kingdom dominated by Brazil (not a colony, strictly speaking) for a few more decades - Pedro is a good, liberal regent, but he won't rule Portugal forever. Going from the centre of a multicontinental empire to a faraway colony is hard to take for any country, and Portugal will fight for independence. I imagine in such a scenario the Portuguese colonial empire would be Brazilian, which would be interesting.
Pedro was good at becoming king, not so good at actually being a king. Considering the speed at which he was persuaded to champion Brazilian independence, I think it highly likely he'd lead, or be lead, a charge to make himself king in Portugal without waiting for Joao to die. He then would be caught between the liberals and the conservatives, and he wasn't much for calming discord in the ruling factions. He'd almost certainly have to make some effort to keep Brazil in the fold, which is a tough row to hoe if Joao digs in his heels. Brazil will get off to a much better start as Joao would have likely kept the treasury in Brazil instead of taking it to Portugal as OTL. It would be interesting to see if he could keep any loyalty of the military forces (dominated by Portuguese) left in Brazil.

By 1820, it's all going to be one big sticky wicket no matter what happens, and it's going to take far better leaders than either Joao or Pedro to keep the empire intact, no matter where the head is.
 
I think you'd have to keep the Portuguese Royal family in exile a lot longer. Maybe Napoleon is able to successfully set up a puppet republic in Portugal and he remains in power in France until his natural death. Then, upon his death, the Napoleonic Empire dissolves into a factional struggle between Napoleon II and a number of the leading French generals. With Portugal spending decades as a Republic, many of the Monarchists would probably flee to Brazil. Portugal ends up being reconquered by Brazil only in the 1860s or 1870s. By then, Brazil could have surpassed Portugal in both population and GDP (you would need the exiled Royal family to be pro-industrializatiom), and could remain the heart of the reunited Portuguese Empire.
 
Although if Portugal seceded from Brazil, I wonder what parts of the Portuguese Empire will fall to Brazil? Would they be able to get Angola, or would Portugal/Britain step in to stop that acquisition?

Just as possible as the UK becoming a colony of the present day US: Not quite likely, as soon as both sides are just as big in economy and population the union would fall apart, as it did in 1822.

Britain was a hell of a lot wealthier, powerful, and populous compared to the US than Portugal was to Brazil. Brazil already passed Portugal in population by 1800--the US wouldn't do so until 1870. Brazil dominating Portugal in 1900 seems far more likely than the US dominating the UK in 1900.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Although if Portugal seceded from Brazil, I wonder what parts of the Portuguese Empire will fall to Brazil? Would they be able to get Angola, or would Portugal/Britain step in to stop that acquisition?



Britain was a hell of a lot wealthier, powerful, and populous compared to the US than Portugal was to Brazil. Brazil already passed Portugal in population by 1800--the US wouldn't do so until 1870. Brazil dominating Portugal in 1900 seems far more likely than the US dominating the UK in 1900.

Yes but 1/3-1/2 of Brazil population was African slaves.
 
Portugal as a colony? No. As a constituent kingdom? Possible, if difficult.

Some food for thought here: many point only to the 1820 Revolution as the cause for the Royal Court's return to Lisbon, as if Joao could have remained in Rio if he wanted to. That's not true. IMO Joao would have gladly tossed Portugal to keep Brazil, but the problem was that many Brazilian provinces (including some actors in Rio) adhered to the Revolution, because they were all pissed at Rio having become the Portuguese capital. Any political project to maintain the Luso-Brazilian union must consider that it would not be Brazil trying to assert dominance over Portugal and Portuguese Africa, but Rio de Janeiro trying to assert dominance over Portugal and the Brazilian provinces. They failed in the former and succeeded in the latter in OTL.
 
I think you'd have to keep the Portuguese Royal family in exile a lot longer.

In such a scenario, wouldn't the separation between Portugal and Brazil be more intense with a new generation having no memory whatsoever of being ruled by the Braganza? Hell, with Portugal resenting being ruled by Paris in your scenario, why would they accept being ruled by Rio?

But then Pedro would be in Lisbon when his father the king dies in Rio. No way the Portuguese would accept his return to Brazil as a king.

He could just leave his son as the new Prince Regent and I don't see why any Portuguese would have much of a problem with it. Of course, this system cannot be retained forever because the Portuguese dog won't like being wagged by its Brazilian tail.
 
Portugal as a colony of Brazil would never work.

Now keeping the United Kingdom together is probably doable. But in order to get the Portuguese to accept it, Lisbon would have to remain the capital.
 
In such a scenario, wouldn't the separation between Portugal and Brazil be more intense with a new generation having no memory whatsoever of being ruled by the Braganza? Hell, with Portugal resenting being ruled by Paris in your scenario, why would they accept being ruled by Rio?

Well, you'd have to have a couple things:
1) French rule would have to be brutal and the wars devastating so that Portugal would be willing to accept pretty much anyone who could push out the French.
2) The Brazilians would have to be instrumental in the liberation of Portugal from the French so that they couldn't have thrown the French out on their own.
3) Brazil would have to be wealthier than Portugal at the time of reconquest and would have to invest heavily in rebuilding infrastructure so that Brazilian rule is seen as benevolent.
4) The local "colonial" government in Lisbon would havr to have a great deal of autonomy from Rio - maybe something akin to Canada/Australia before the Statute of Westminster.
 
Well, you'd have to have a couple things:
1) French rule would have to be brutal and the wars devastating so that Portugal would be willing to accept pretty much anyone who could push out the French.
2) The Brazilians would have to be instrumental in the liberation of Portugal from the French so that they couldn't have thrown the French out on their own.
3) Brazil would have to be wealthier than Portugal at the time of reconquest and would have to invest heavily in rebuilding infrastructure so that Brazilian rule is seen as benevolent.
4) The local "colonial" government in Lisbon would havr to have a great deal of autonomy from Rio - maybe something akin to Canada/Australia before the Statute of Westminster.

That's very reasonable IMO. A Union by the 1870's with a Brazilan economy already with some degree of industrialization could easily make Portugal their "Canada". TBH by the 1820's Portugal is only a nuisance to Brazil and vice-versa: Brazil is still largely underdeveloped to be capable to project any power and Portugal is just too weak to control such a large territory as Brazil.
 
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