Population size of Shetland and Orkney if they stay Danish.

Shetland and Orkney have today a population together the size of Faroe, even through they have a far better climate and until the mid 19th century had a far larger population. So let's say that Denmark keep them and the timeline up to modern more or less stay minimal butterfly.

Denmark lose Norway in 1814, but keep these island together with Faroe, Iceland and Greenland.

The islands have of course been converted to Lutheranism together with Faroe in the 16th century.

Linguistic they're in same boat as the Faroese, the Danes doesn't create a separate bible for them, so their languages are seen as Danish dialects until the 19th century. So in short they all talk something we wouls recognise as Faroese.
 
Economic want seems to have been the main factor behind Shetlander and Orcadian emigration, the inhabitants of those archipelagoes responding to economic pressures by emigrating to destinations within the wider British empire. The question that has to be asked is whether the Faroese failed to emigrate in the 19th century in comparable proportions because they lacked the opportunity, or whether they failed to emigrate because economic pressures on their archipelago were less.
 
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Emigration seems to have been the main factor behind Shetlander and Orcadian emigration, the inhabitants of those archipelagoes responding to economic pressures by emigrating to destinations within the wider British empire. The question that has to be asked is whether the Faroese failed to emigrate in the 19th century in comparable proportions because they lacked the opportunity, or whether they failed to emigrate because economic pressures on their archipelago were less.

A major reason for the emigration was that land ownership was consolidated under very few land owners. Denmark on the other hand sought a policy of creating a large land owning class. The Danish land reform was inspired by the British, as the Danish king saw the what the British was doing and thought it was the worst thing since the Great Flood and decided to do the complete opposite thing. The result was the creation of a large rural middle class, and move from relative low value agriculture products to high value (which is why Danish bacon are better known than Danish wool or wheat) and also served to create rural industries. The Danish state had a major focus on ensuring it subjects/citizens had a good enough living standard so that social unrest was avoided.
 
I imagine that we will somewhat similar population in 1801 as in OTL Orkney; 24000, Shetland/Zetland 22000 and Faroe 5300.

As we go into the 19th century, we will likely see Denmark focusing on improving agriculture on the islands as they did on Iceland and Faroe. Both Orkney and Shetland have greater potential for this, but they're still pretty crappy agricultural areas, but no worse than the Jutish heath. We will likely see a slow rise of nationalism on the islands. It will likely consolidate into the idea that all the island are populated by one nation. The Danes will likely keep treating the icelands as three separate counties. This mean that the island will lack a main city where the population will consolidate in, instead there will be three regional administrative cities. While this won't keep them from pushing the idea of the Norns as one nation, it will weaken their political development. If the islands was united they would likely gain some kind of autonomy in the late 19th century. Here it will likely happen later.

Demographic I expect that Orkney and Shetland each having around 60000 people by 1900. The Norn all in al will be around 135000 people.

Of course the control over these island will also effect Denmark. In OTL the Danish Realms was some thing like 93% Danish in 1900, with Icelanders making up 5%, West Indians 1%, while Greenlander and Faroese made up the last 1%. Here Danes only make up 86-87% of the population with Norns being the second biggest group at 7-8%, Icelanders 4%, West Indians 1% and Greenlanders 0,5%. This means that the Norns and Icelanders can be a real factor in Danish elections and in the economy. The result could be that they would be better integrated into the Danish political system. We could see Denmark being somewhat less Danish-centric. It could serve to make the Icelanders less focused on authonomy, if they can see they got influence in the Danish parliament. I could also see the Norn and Icelanders try to push some kind of pan-West Scandinavianism.
 
Of course the control over these island will also effect Denmark. In OTL the Danish Realms was some thing like 93% Danish in 1900, with Icelanders making up 5%, West Indians 1%, while Greenlander and Faroese made up the last 1%. Here Danes only make up 86-87% of the population with Norns being the second biggest group at 7-8%, Icelanders 4%, West Indians 1% and Greenlanders 0,5%. This means that the Norns and Icelanders can be a real factor in Danish elections and in the economy. The result could be that they would be better integrated into the Danish political system. We could see Denmark being somewhat less Danish-centric. It could serve to make the Icelanders less focused on authonomy, if they can see they got influence in the Danish parliament. I could also see the Norn and Icelanders try to push some kind of pan-West Scandinavianism.
Ehh, I don't think there's a huge difference between being 93% Danish and being 87% Danish. Both are very high proportions; while the Icelanders and Norns would have slightly more representation ITTL, the Danes will still dominate. Sooner or later, independence movements are bound to crop up.

However, the "pan-West-Scandinavianism" thing is possible. Taking your possible demographic figures of 70000 in Faeroe, 70000 in Iceland, 30000 in Shetland, and 30000 in Orkney, I could imagine all four of these island groups uniting into an independent "Republic of Norðr" (or something like that).

Maybe with Greenland could also become part of this Republic of Norðr, although it is obviously more culturally different.
 
Would a pan-Norn identity necessarily take off? Being under the rule of a single power would help, but the Faroes, Shetlands, and Orkneys are still three very widely separated archipelagoes. As far as Iceland goes, Icelandic-Faroese relations seem to be relatively limited OTL, with Iceland serving at most as a example for the Faroese as they embarked on their own somewhat later national revival.
 
Isn't Norn destined to separate from Faroese because of the heavy Scots influence on the language thanks to their political links to Scotland (ruled by Scottish earls since the 13th century). I think the two Nornish languages would be as separate from Faroese as Icelandic. Unless you get that pan-West Scandinavian thing as mentioned.
 
Ehh, I don't think there's a huge difference between being 93% Danish and being 87% Danish. Both are very high proportions; while the Icelanders and Norns would have slightly more representation ITTL, the Danes will still dominate. Sooner or later, independence movements are bound to crop up.

The question is not whether Danes will dominate, it's a question about them not being ignored.
However, the "pan-West-Scandinavianism" thing is possible. Taking your possible demographic figures of 70000 in Faeroe, 70000 in Iceland, 30000 in Shetland, and 30000 in Orkney, I could imagine all four of these island groups uniting into an independent "Republic of Norðr" (or something like that).

More like 15000 Faroese, 60000 Shetlander, 60000 Orkneyans and 80000 Icelanders. There's soome problems with pan-West-Scandinavianism which I will explain further down

Maybe with Greenland could also become part of this Republic of Norðr, although it is obviously more culturally different.

Very unlikely, there was a reason Iceland didn't get Faroe and Greenland in OTL

Would a pan-Norn identity necessarily take off? Being under the rule of a single power would help, but the Faroes, Shetlands, and Orkneys are still three very widely separated archipelagoes. As far as Iceland goes, Icelandic-Faroese relations seem to be relatively limited OTL, with Iceland serving at most as a example for the Faroese as they embarked on their own somewhat later national revival.

There's a reason the different West Scandinavian languages look like they do. Icelandic was treated pretty unique by the Danes. The Danish government saw Icelandic as a pure version of the Nordic language, together with the fact that the Icelanders made their own bible in the 16th century, this meant that Icelandic ended up much less influenced by Danish than Faroese and "Nynorsk" (in reality several Norwegian dialects which are closely related to Icelandic and Faroese, I will use Nynorsk for short) because these wasn't "protected" by the Danes and lack their own bible. If we look at Nynorsk and Færøsk they have to much greater extent been effected by Danish grammar and vocabulary. What really make Faroese hard for a Dane or Norwegian to read, it's the alphabet, you could quite likely use Nynorsk to write the language, which would made it fully understandable by Danes and Norwegian (we understand it, but it's can be hard to read a longer text). The Shetlanders and Orkneyans would have the same effect from Danish through the use of Danish as church, administrative and school language, also they're more likely to interact with each other. So they will likely be clear related dialects

The biggest problem with a pan-West Scandinavism are pretty much the Icelanders, after several hundred years of the Danes sucking up to their language, the Icelanders have developed a idea about the languages purity, which means they would expect the Norns to learn their language. The Norns which will out number the Icelandersand those population centre are further south than Thorshavn, will likely be less impressed by the Icelanders, the more fertile southern islands will likely also have had more Danish and Norwegian influence (Danish peasants being settled on the islands, Norwegian traders, a local garrison of Dano-Norwegian marines etc.) So I lean to them using the standard Danish-Norwegian alphabet. I also think they will look more toward the rise of Nynorsk in the 19th century. As classical Nynorsk (Høgnorsk/High Norwegian) is not a language, but a artificial written standard created to be able to be used by the different dialect speakers og continental West Scandinavian, I could see Norn being seen as part of it. The result could be that Nornian islands (Norrønland) and West Norway (Vestlandet) ended up using the same written standard. Which would be mostly mutual intelligible with Danish (To read Nynorsk as a Dane are like for English person to read very badly written English, it's understandable but long texts takes a lot of concentration). Of course the Danes wouldn't understand the spoken language without training.

Isn't Norn destined to separate from Faroese because of the heavy Scots influence on the language thanks to their political links to Scotland (ruled by Scottish earls since the 13th century). I think the two Nornish languages would be as separate from Faroese as Icelandic. Unless you get that pan-West Scandinavian thing as mentioned.

The different here are pretty much the Danish Bible, the lack of Scottish immigrants after Scotland took them over, the influx of a Danish elite and Danish-Norwegian traders, farmers, sailors and soldiers.
 
There's a reason the different West Scandinavian languages look like they do. Icelandic was treated pretty unique by the Danes. The Danish government saw Icelandic as a pure version of the Nordic language, together with the fact that the Icelanders made their own bible in the 16th century, this meant that Icelandic ended up much less influenced by Danish than Faroese and "Nynorsk" (in reality several Norwegian dialects which are closely related to Icelandic and Faroese, I will use Nynorsk for short) because these wasn't "protected" by the Danes and lack their own bible. If we look at Nynorsk and Færøsk they have to much greater extent been effected by Danish grammar and vocabulary. What really make Faroese hard for a Dane or Norwegian to read, it's the alphabet, you could quite likely use Nynorsk to write the language, which would made it fully understandable by Danes and Norwegian (we understand it, but it's can be hard to read a longer text). The Shetlanders and Orkneyans would have the same effect from Danish through the use of Danish as church, administrative and school language, also they're more likely to interact with each other. So they will likely be clear related dialects

The biggest problem with a pan-West Scandinavism are pretty much the Icelanders, after several hundred years of the Danes sucking up to their language, the Icelanders have developed a idea about the languages purity, which means they would expect the Norns to learn their language. The Norns which will out number the Icelandersand those population centre are further south than Thorshavn, will likely be less impressed by the Icelanders, the more fertile southern islands will likely also have had more Danish and Norwegian influence (Danish peasants being settled on the islands, Norwegian traders, a local garrison of Dano-Norwegian marines etc.) So I lean to them using the standard Danish-Norwegian alphabet. I also think they will look more toward the rise of Nynorsk in the 19th century. As classical Nynorsk (Høgnorsk/High Norwegian) is not a language, but a artificial written standard created to be able to be used by the different dialect speakers og continental West Scandinavian, I could see Norn being seen as part of it. The result could be that Nornian islands (Norrønland) and West Norway (Vestlandet) ended up using the same written standard. Which would be mostly mutual intelligible with Danish (To read Nynorsk as a Dane are like for English person to read very badly written English, it's understandable but long texts takes a lot of concentration). Of course the Danes wouldn't understand the spoken language without training.

These are all good points. Could we perhaps have a situations where the inhabitants of the different archipelagoes have different standards of Norn?

I'm also intrigued by the alternate possibility imagined here, of a potential identification of the inhabitants of these three archipelagoes with Norway. Insular Norway, maybe, even a cross-border irredentism?
 
These are all good points. Could we perhaps have a situations where the inhabitants of the different archipelagoes have different standards of Norn?

It's pretty much geiven in fact most individual islands will have their own dialects.

I'm also intrigued by the alternate possibility imagined here, of a potential identification of the inhabitants of these three archipelagoes with Norway. Insular Norway, maybe, even a cross-border irredentism?

The Norwegian Nazi had that kind of irredentism, the problem are that the vast majority of Norwegian did not. The main Norwegian Written Standard "Bokmål/Bokmaal" (meaning "book language") used by 85% of the Norwegian population are fundamental Danish, in fact until the spelling reform in 1907 it was Danish. So interesting what my suggestion does, are that it create the same kind of split in the Danish realm as in Norway with a majority speaking "Danish" (Danish and Bokmål) and a minority speaking "Norwegian" (Nynorsk and Norn). I would lean toward this split create a greater push for increased cooperation between Norway and the Danish realm (not a union). We could see the Norwegians avoiding OTL Bokmål spelling reform and have instead a common Danish-Norwegian spelling reform for Danish and Bokmål. The rsult would be a quite different Scandinavia linguistic. Instead of Swedish having 10 million speakers, Danish 6 million and Norwegian 5 million. We would have 10 million Swedish speakers, 10 million Bokmål (Danish) speakers and 1 million Norrøn/Norn (Nynorsk) speakers (I use Bokmål and Norn because they're more neutral words than Danish and Nynorsk), it create a entirely different balance and could serve to push even more Nordic integration than in OTL. We may even see a failed push toward creating a united Scandinavian language (that will likely fail as the Norwegian attempt to unite Bokmål and Nynorsk failed).
 
The question is not whether Danes will dominate, it's a question about them not being ignored.


More like 15000 Faroese, 60000 Shetlander, 60000 Orkneyans and 80000 Icelanders. There's soome problems with pan-West-Scandinavianism which I will explain further down



Very unlikely, there was a reason Iceland didn't get Faroe and Greenland in OTL



There's a reason the different West Scandinavian languages look like they do. Icelandic was treated pretty unique by the Danes. The Danish government saw Icelandic as a pure version of the Nordic language, together with the fact that the Icelanders made their own bible in the 16th century, this meant that Icelandic ended up much less influenced by Danish than Faroese and "Nynorsk" (in reality several Norwegian dialects which are closely related to Icelandic and Faroese, I will use Nynorsk for short) because these wasn't "protected" by the Danes and lack their own bible. If we look at Nynorsk and Færøsk they have to much greater extent been effected by Danish grammar and vocabulary. What really make Faroese hard for a Dane or Norwegian to read, it's the alphabet, you could quite likely use Nynorsk to write the language, which would made it fully understandable by Danes and Norwegian (we understand it, but it's can be hard to read a longer text). The Shetlanders and Orkneyans would have the same effect from Danish through the use of Danish as church, administrative and school language, also they're more likely to interact with each other. So they will likely be clear related dialects

The biggest problem with a pan-West Scandinavism are pretty much the Icelanders, after several hundred years of the Danes sucking up to their language, the Icelanders have developed a idea about the languages purity, which means they would expect the Norns to learn their language. The Norns which will out number the Icelandersand those population centre are further south than Thorshavn, will likely be less impressed by the Icelanders, the more fertile southern islands will likely also have had more Danish and Norwegian influence (Danish peasants being settled on the islands, Norwegian traders, a local garrison of Dano-Norwegian marines etc.) So I lean to them using the standard Danish-Norwegian alphabet. I also think they will look more toward the rise of Nynorsk in the 19th century. As classical Nynorsk (Høgnorsk/High Norwegian) is not a language, but a artificial written standard created to be able to be used by the different dialect speakers og continental West Scandinavian, I could see Norn being seen as part of it. The result could be that Nornian islands (Norrønland) and West Norway (Vestlandet) ended up using the same written standard. Which would be mostly mutual intelligible with Danish (To read Nynorsk as a Dane are like for English person to read very badly written English, it's understandable but long texts takes a lot of concentration). Of course the Danes wouldn't understand the spoken language without training.



The different here are pretty much the Danish Bible, the lack of Scottish immigrants after Scotland took them over, the influx of a Danish elite and Danish-Norwegian traders, farmers, sailors and soldiers.
Very interesting. I wasn't aware of all of those little details surrounding the development of languages and nations in western Scandinavia.

Judging by your post, I'd say that the most likely scenario is that Faeroe, Shetland, and Orkney unite into an independent Republic of Norðr, but Iceland and Greenland remain separate. A standard writing system is developed for these three island groups' common language (let's call the language "Norn").

This country would be pretty small, but wealthy once someone gets round to drilling for oil in their territorial waters. Population: an optimistic guess would be 200,000. Capital: Difficult to say. I don't know how feasible a South-Africa-style arrangement would be, with Leirvik (Lerwick), Kirkjuvagr (Kirkwall), and Tórshavn as co-capitals? Otherwise there'd probably be bitter rivalry about which island group the capital should be located in.
 
his country would be pretty small, but wealthy once someone gets round to drilling for oil in their territorial waters. Population: an optimistic guess would be 200,000. Capital: Difficult to say. I don't know how feasible a South-Africa-style arrangement would be, with Leirvik (Lerwick), Kirkjuvagr (Kirkwall), and Tórshavn as co-capitals? Otherwise there'd probably be bitter rivalry about which island group the capital should be located in.

Let's say they do become independent.

I lean toward the population before being the same as OTL on Faroe (50.000) and Shetland having 100.000 people. Beside that I think Kirkjuvagr will end up the capital. As such it will see a influx from the othe island. In OTL there's 20.000 Faroese living on the Danish mainland. These will end up Kirkjuvagr. I think we can see the percent leaving Shetland (which mean that it's 40.000). Orkney will also be more populated plus they will have a virtual diaspora of the same size which also end up in Kirkjuvagr. So Orkney have 200.000 people of those 120.000 live in Kirkjuvagr. This mean Nornland are home to 350.000 people, this gives the islands a somewhat similar population to Iceland with a similar sized capital.
 
The different here are pretty much the Danish Bible, the lack of Scottish immigrants after Scotland took them over, the influx of a Danish elite and Danish-Norwegian traders, farmers, sailors and soldiers.

But would they really have a Danish elite when they already had a Scottish elite? I could see the Scottish who OTL were in Scandinavia instead concentrated in the islands right north of their homeland. Since they guys also are high-ranking nobles of the Scottish Highlands, they can bring in more people from mainland Scotland (which weren't they already doing so OTL before the islands went to Scotland). It's all gonna leave a major Scots influence on Nornish which Faroese lacks. I guess you could still unify Norn with West Norwegian, but it seems to me the language would be very different than Faroese still. Faroese will lack the Scots influence.

Let's say they do become independent.

I lean toward the population before being the same as OTL on Faroe (50.000) and Shetland having 100.000 people. Beside that I think Kirkjuvagr will end up the capital. As such it will see a influx from the othe island. In OTL there's 20.000 Faroese living on the Danish mainland. These will end up Kirkjuvagr. I think we can see the percent leaving Shetland (which mean that it's 40.000). Orkney will also be more populated plus they will have a virtual diaspora of the same size which also end up in Kirkjuvagr. So Orkney have 200.000 people of those 120.000 live in Kirkjuvagr. This mean Nornland are home to 350.000 people, this gives the islands a somewhat similar population to Iceland with a similar sized capital.

So you envision Kirkjuvagr as the capital and thus attracting many rural immigrants?

Still, what about emigration to the New World which much reduced the population OTL? If we assume the New World looks much like OTL, a lot of people might still leave, like the Norwegians who went to the Dakotas OTL. What might make the land patterns on the islands different than they were OTL, when they're probably still going to end up being owned by the same sort of Scottish landlords as OTL?
 
But would they really have a Danish elite when they already had a Scottish elite? I could see the Scottish who OTL were in Scandinavia instead concentrated in the islands right north of their homeland. Since they guys also are high-ranking nobles of the Scottish Highlands, they can bring in more people from mainland Scotland (which weren't they already doing so OTL before the islands went to Scotland). It's all gonna leave a major Scots influence on Nornish which Faroese lacks. I guess you could still unify Norn with West Norwegian, but it seems to me the language would be very different than Faroese still. Faroese will lack the Scots influence.

As the Danish state convert the Norn to Lutheranism, which they will do, it will not accept non-Lutheran landlords for its subject, which will mean that the landowners will either have to convert or sell their land on the island. The most likely scenario are that the Scottish elite set up sidelines on the islands. These will not hav e the size to be able to stay linguistic distinct from the locals. They too will end up going to the same churches as the other locals. The priests will be educated ion Denmark and Danish will be used as administrative and ecclessial language. Also the local administration and merchants will be Danes, the Danish state will not accept their money ending up buying non-Danish goods unless they don't have any choice, which they have. As Scotland become a Presbytarian the split will grow even stronger between Scotland and the islands.

So you envision Kirkjuvagr as the capital and thus attracting many rural immigrants?

Still, what about emigration to the New World which much reduced the population OTL? If we assume the New World looks much like OTL, a lot of people might still leave, like the Norwegians who went to the Dakotas OTL. What might make the land patterns on the islands different than they were OTL, when they're probably still going to end up being owned by the same sort of Scottish landlords as OTL?

Because the Danish state forced land reforms through in Denmark, they will force the same through on the Orkney and Shetlands.
 
Let's say they do become independent.

I lean toward the population before being the same as OTL on Faroe (50.000) and Shetland having 100.000 people. Beside that I think Kirkjuvagr will end up the capital. As such it will see a influx from the othe island. In OTL there's 20.000 Faroese living on the Danish mainland. These will end up Kirkjuvagr. I think we can see the percent leaving Shetland (which mean that it's 40.000). Orkney will also be more populated plus they will have a virtual diaspora of the same size which also end up in Kirkjuvagr. So Orkney have 200.000 people of those 120.000 live in Kirkjuvagr. This mean Nornland are home to 350.000 people, this gives the islands a somewhat similar population to Iceland with a similar sized capital.

Why would they gain independence as a single polity?
 
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