Popular misconceptions about pre-modern History

That Caligula threatened to appoint his horse to the position of consul was because he was mad. It was actually meant as an insult, as in "my horse would do a better job than the rest of you".

Hard for me to believe that the gunpowder would explode before the person suffocated or burned to death. The temperatures required....

IIRC, the success rate was...variable.

Though, sometimes the victim would be garrotted first, so at least they would be unconscious.
 

Redcoat

Banned
A fairly popular misconception- that there was no "Ameripox"- the vast majority of deaths due to disease in colonial Mexico seem to have been due to an indigenous hemorrhagic fever, rather than a virgin-soil epidemic.
Oh, Oh, oh, raises hand.

I wrote a Wikipedia page on that.
 
While I agree with most of your points, this argument has actually been used by conservatives as an excuse for raising the retirement age-
" People live longer, so they can work longer."
Wasn't the original intention of retirement age (and pensions) being that it was expected that most workers weren't gonna be around long enough to receive much from it, and thus the payout would be in a manageable amounts relative to the overall budget, with the original public reason being that retirement age is the general cutoff point where an individual is no longer capable of being productive in a wage work context. So the issue has become "now not only are people living longer (even adjusting for child mortality rates) but they're also healthy for longer time" thus the logic goes that they are capable of working for more years before they reach the point where they are incapable of working any longer...

Of course these days pensions have gone in the way of the dinosaurs (at least among private businesses in the US, and the government might follow suit at some point) and thus the retirement age is starting to be a moot issue (now it's "how long do you have to work in order to save enough in your 401k?" or "I hope I die a quick death before I'm incapable of working")...
 
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I'm guessing you are referring to how Europe grew back in the 1000's to 1100;s, centuries before the Renaissance. No?

Yes basically the common historical misconception those not well versed in history believe is that the "Dark Ages" were this horrible destitute period where Europe kind of just mulled about in sickness and serfdom. Where even before the High Middle Ages life was not as bad as it's made out to be and the growth in all studies was much higher than anyone would think.

It's basically due to the fact that Renaissance Eurpeons (who had their own "dark" quirks) tried to separate themselves from their Medieval ancestors when in certain niches of daily societal life they were actually worse (see bathing)
 
Yes basically the common historical misconception those not well versed in history believe is that the "Dark Ages" were this horrible destitute period where Europe kind of just milled about in sickness and serfdom. Where even before the High Middle Ages life was not as bad as it's made out to be and the growth in all studies was much higher than anyone would think.

It's basically due to the fact that Renaissance Eurpeons (who had their own "dark" quirks) tried to separate themselves from their Medieval ancestors when it certain niches of daily societal life they were actually worse (see bathing)

Can you elaborate more about the bathing part? That sounds very interesting.


Honestly the Middle Ages are still an area I need to shore up about. One thing I'm curious is this; is the dark ages really just the periods of setting up order post the fall of the Western Roman Empire?
 
Yeah, that kind of "webberism" is just ridiculous.

As i understand the situation its was more along the lines that the traditional institutions that resisted the rise of capital and the political rise of the bourgeois class.
whereas in places where these institutions were broken down or weakened allowed them to grow sooner/quicker, which seems to have happened most profoundly in England and the Netherlands, ostensibly the big boys of the protestant world.

Of course even thats a bit of a simplification

But France was a very big boy of a Catholic world and development of the Catholic (Spanish) part of the Netherlands (which, as I understand, by the time when rebellion started were more developed than the Northern part) was artificially slowed down by the Protestant North so this is not a quite "clean test".

OTOH, quite a few Protestant countries remained an economic backwater well into the XIX century.
 
A fairly popular misconception- that there was no "Ameripox"- the vast majority of deaths due to disease in colonial Mexico seem to have been due to an indigenous hemorrhagic fever, rather than a virgin-soil epidemic.
& @Redcoat
Wait, what? Why haven't I heard of this? Why didn't it infect Europe?
 
But France was a very big boy of a Catholic world and development of the Catholic (Spanish) part of the Netherlands (which, as I understand, by the time when rebellion started were more developed than the Northern part) was artificially slowed down by the Protestant North so this is not a quite "clean test".
Actualy, it was Flanders and Brabant (specifically Antwerp) that were the richer part of the Netherlands (not the Walloon parts). Interestingly Flanders was the region were protestantism started in the Netherlands. But when the Spanish recaptured it, the protestants left for the north, meaning many cities lost a significant part of their inhabitants (it took some of them more than a century to recover the population loss) and they were often the wealthier class of citizens. Holland and especialy Amsterdam profited immensly from the rich upper/middle class leaving the Spanish Netherlands.

Actualy I can make this in a misconception.

The differences that exist between Flanders and the Netherlands currently already existed before the Dutch revolt. Nope, they didn't. Yes, there were differences between Flanders and Holland, but there were also differences between Holland and Friesland or Groningen and Utrecht and the differences between Flanders and the parts that now make up the Netherlands were roughly similar to the difference that existed between the provinces that make up the Netherlands now.

Also, Wallonia was never part of France*. It had been part of the Holy Roman Empire. Actualy Flanders (as in the county of Flanders) had been part of France.


*except during the revolutionary/Napoleonic wars
 
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Actualy, it was Flanders and Brabant (specifically Antwerp) that were the richer part of the Netherlands (not the Walloon parts). Interestingly Flanders was the region were protestantism started in the Netherlands. But when the Spanish recaptured it, the protestants left for the north, meaning many cities lost a significant part of their inhabitants (it took some of them more than a century to recover the population loss) and they were often the wealthier class of citizens. Holland and especialy Amsterdam profited immensly from the rich upper/middle class leaving the Spanish Netherlands.

Actualy I can make this in a misconception.

The differences that exist between Flanders and the Netherlands currently already existed before the Dutch revolt. Nope, they didn't. Yes, there were differences between Flanders and Holland, but there were also differences between Holland and Friesland or Groningen and Utrecht and the differences between Flanders and the parts that now make up the Netherlands were roughly similar to the difference that existed between the provinces that make up the Netherlands now.

Also, Wallonia was never part of France*. It had been part of the Holy Roman Empire. Actualy Flanders (as in the county of Flanders) had been part of France.


*except during the revolutionary/Napoleonic wars
Was Antwerp that much richer than Bruges and Ghent? I guess it depends on the time period.
 
That Caligula threatened to appoint his horse to the position of consul was because he was mad. It was actually meant as an insult, as in "my horse would do a better job than the rest of you".

Well, that's one explanation that has been suggested, but since we don't actually have any way of proving it I think it's going a bit far to call the insanity theory a "misconception".
 
Was Antwerp that much richer than Bruges and Ghent? I guess it depends on the time period.
I believe that at the end of the middleages the position of the county Flanders (thus Bruges and Ghent) slowly switched towards Antwerp, partly because the access to the sea of Bruges was silted.
 
Well, that's one explanation that has been suggested, but since we don't actually have any way of proving it I think it's going a bit far to call the insanity theory a "misconception".

Oh, I'm willing to accept he was mad. But he may not have been as mad as history remembers him.

He was certainly a sadist, though.
 

Redcoat

Banned
& @Redcoat
Wait, what? Why haven't I heard of this? Why didn't it infect Europe?
No clue to be honest. Some think some did catch it but mistook it for a European disease. It might be that virus was less viral then the European ones, who knows. The cocoliztli theory is just a theory spread by some scientists in the field. Apparently some think it's still around today in remote areas. But even those who believe in this theory concede it was worsened by the fact that I dunno....there's so much chaos with the Europeans coming and their already weakened immune systems screwed things up more.....not to mention drought.
 
Actualy, it was Flanders and Brabant (specifically Antwerp) that were the richer part of the Netherlands (not the Walloon parts). Interestingly Flanders was the region were protestantism started in the Netherlands.

But when the Spanish recaptured it, the protestants left for the north, meaning many cities lost a significant part of their inhabitants (it took some of them more than a century to recover the population loss) and they were often the wealthier class of citizens. Holland and especialy Amsterdam profited immensly from the rich upper/middle class leaving the Spanish Netherlands.

Population loss in Antwerp was only a part of the problem: from 1648 till 1863 (with the interruption for 1795 - 1814) the United Provinces closed Scheldt to navigation. Taking into an account that now it is the 2nd biggest port in Europe, it is probably safe to assume that religion of its inhabitants is not a major impediment. ;)

The important thing is that they had been among the most developed parts of Europe well before Luther was born and the later raise or decline of the specific provinces was to a much greater degree a subject of the geopolitical factors than of a pure religion. Neither, as I said, were all Protestant countries among the most developed ones in Europe.

Another part of the "theory" is that the Protestantism was approving greed while Catholicism was not. This, of course, does not stay to any serious criticism, even if applicable strictly to money lending: the medieval/early modern bankers included the Templars, numerous Italians banking houses (Medici being just one of many, even in Florence), Fuggers, etc. And the quite Catholic Spaniards had been as greedy as it goes closely followed by the equally Catholic Portuguese.

It is just that the Catholics tended to be just plain greedy while the Protestants had been saying that they are greedy with God's blessing. ;)

The differences that exist between Flanders and the Netherlands currently already existed before the Dutch revolt. Nope, they didn't.

Strictly speaking, the Flanders were a part of the "Netherlands" (as a regional term) and most of the middle ages they were the most developed part of that region.
 
That Caligula threatened to appoint his horse to the position of consul was because he was mad. It was actually meant as an insult, as in "my horse would do a better job than the rest of you".

Well, one may say that insulting the Senate as an institution (as opposite to simply killing its individual members and looting their property) was a clear sign of a madness because you would not just end up being killed but also would be forever condemned by the historians (who tended to describe the events fro the senatorial point of view). :)
 
No clue to be honest. Some think some did catch it but mistook it for a European disease. It might be that virus was less viral then the European ones, who knows. The cocoliztli theory is just a theory spread by some scientists in the field. Apparently some think it's still around today in remote areas. But even those who believe in this theory concede it was worsened by the fact that I dunno....there's so much chaos with the Europeans coming and their already weakened immune systems screwed things up more.....not to mention drought.

I actually meant to edit my post earlier, but if you're talking about this, at least to me what looks like happened is cocoliztli and smallpox almost had a contest to see who could kill people fastest (as Ebola shows, an extremely lethal disease could show up and still not do well because it killed people too quickly to be spread), which meant that any Spaniard who caught it quickly succumbed to it before it made it's way to Europe, and since the population of the Mexican basin dropped so dramatically, the disease soon found it hard to spread. Plus, Mexico was not a settler colony like the Thirteen Colonies were. According to Wiki, maybe 650,000 people immigrated from Spain to Mexico, far less than the millions that poured into the US. Thus there just weren't as many opportunities for it to catch a ride to Europe. Cocoliztli had the "benefit" of being a kind of salmonella that was essentially unknown to Europe, and cause hemorrhaging. Salmonella is spread when something contaminated with Salmonella is accidentally ingested or ends up another way getting into the body. The hemorrhaging makes it that much easier to spread because since someone is literally bleeding out everywhere, the likelihood of some blood that is contaminated landing on something that would later be eaten is a lot higher. As a counterpoint, this article describes how the Spaniards seemed almost unaffected while natives around them died in droves. On one hand, the traditional explanation for this is that the Spaniards had stronger immune systems from dealing with things such as the black death. On the other hand, the lack of transmission could be explained by the intense social stratification of Spanish Mexican society. Native Americans IIRC were almost untouchables healthy, much less between a Spanish conquistador and their slave who was bleeding from their orifices, thus resulting in no real spread. The Spanish population was also small, with Mexico city proper only hosting around a four thousand Spaniards, and most of them soldiers, allowing for this stratification to continue. Essentially, the Spanish unwittingly quarantined themselves.

There's another disease called matlazahuatl which was similar. It only gets a footnote on the wikipedia page but upon further research I feel like it deserves it's own little section in this rant. Matlazahuatl was a disease that affected Mesoamerica in the wet season, while Cocoliztli affected it in the dry season. It was a significant part of ancient Mexican basin civilization, to the point that a massive outbreak of matlazahuatl is what took out the Toltecs, which the Aztecs saw as their direct predecessor (in the same way the Romans saw the Greek empires as their precursor). It had similar but milder symptoms, but had two things that separated it from Cocoliztli. One is that it was somewhat milder. The second is that it primarily affected people 20-40. (Also, a lot of sources in all of these are in Spanish, so it is a bit hard to dig up). Interestingly, this is around the same age as a lot of farmers and workers would be in Europe. Way, way, way less is known about matlazahuatl than is known about cocoliztli (which even then is minimal), but the University of Barcelona proposes it is some form of Hepatitis. An article from the 1800's claims that it is noncontagious and does not (generally) infect Europeans. However, I could find no information about matlazahuatl outbreaks between 1737 (which did infect Spaniards, albeit at reduced rates compared to Native Americans, though this could be explained by the compromised immune systems in Native Americans due to the stresses of colonization) and 1821, which leads me to think that the described disease is somewhat different (along with factors that the described disease seemed to affect people 30-50, while earlier sources describe it infecting those about a decade younger).

If these two diseases were to have spread to Europe, the results would have been devastating. Matlazahuatl would have probably arrived first since iirc the years the Spanish were more involved were wet-season years due to the crop growth and Mesoamerica around the time of the Spanish conquest was in a wet season, though correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps a Spanish missionary-hospitaler, in the mountains of Mexico, ends up getting some blood on his robe he forgets to wash off, and contracts it on the way back to Spain. Soon, his whole convent is dead, with many in the surrounding city having high fevers and intermittent bleeding. As the disease spreads through Spain, panic sets in as the disease burns its way through Europe, with perhaps a 20% fatality rate. The worst is yet to come, however. Cocoliztli arrives in an absolutely devastating way not seen since the Black Death. In Iberia, 60% of the population dies from Cocoliztli, after a fifth had died from Matlazahuatl. (Note that in Mesoamerica, the rate was perhaps 75-90% so I am deflating them a little to account for European disease resistance). The population of Spain drops from 7,400,000 to 2,368,000. Death rates elsewhere are somewhat less but still comparable. Europe grinds to a standstill...


Holy shit this took me forever to write. However, there just isn't any information on the two diseases out there, but this has inspired me to maybe even write a book on it. We'll see what happens.
 
That Hannibal was stupid for not besieging Rome after Cannae. The truth is, Hannibal had nowhere near enough strength or even siege equipment to take a city like Rome, and that was never his plan. His plan was to defeat the Romans in the field so soundly that Rome's Italian allies would turn against them, giving him the added strength to truly threaten the city and either force a Roman withdrawal to Italy to relieve pressure from Iberia or get a surrender.
Let me tell you-min.jpg
 
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