Pop Culture WI: Spock Stays Dead

This has to deal more of Star Trek from a pop culture angle, rather than in-universe.

There are indications that Nicholas Meyer intended for Spock to stay dead after the events of The Wrath of Khan. The backlash against Spock's death required Nimoy to reassure fans that Spock was not through as a character. Obviously, The Search for Spock rectified this.

What if Paramount/Meyer/Bennett/whoever decide to keep Spock dead in-universe, or at least for a while? What happens to Star Trek, in terms of being a franchise? Can Star Trek maintain a level of quality, even without Nimoy as Spock? Can a Spock-less Star Trek III succeed, with new characters assuming greater roles (i.e., Saavik, David)?

Personally, I think it could, but it would be extremely difficult. The group dynamic between Kirk, Spock, and Bones would be gone, of course. The hole would be great. However, I don't think it would be completely lost. Spock would undoubtedly still loom large in character direction. The role of Saavik would definitely be interesting to explore, though character development would be different since I can't imagine a POD that keeps Alley in the role. A young female Vulcan - or a half-roman one, depending on what you consider canon- would provide a much different dynamic. (On a side note, IMO, one of the greatest injustices in the movie series was the dropping of Saavik - literally - on Vulcan where she was never heard from again, and never fully developed as a character. Casting issues made this difficult, of course, but it's so sad, in my opinion)

What do you all thing? Can Star Trek survive with a dead Spock?
 
The Search for Spock would be radically different if Spock remained dead. The Voyage Home would probably work without Spock. The Final Frontier would probably be ok as would The Undiscovered Country. We would then not have the episodes Unification in TNG and also the reboot movies would have to have a different character as the remaining character from our universe such as Kirk.
 
The Search for Spock would be radically different if Spock remained dead. The Voyage Home would probably work without Spock. The Final Frontier would probably be ok as would The Undiscovered Country. We would then not have the episodes Unification in TNG and also the reboot movies would have to have a different character as the remaining character from our universe such as Kirk.
All this. Though I think Bones could work well as the remaining character.
Another thought is that this could radically change Star Trek. Wasn't TVH written by Leonard Nemoy? Since he isn't going to play Spock anymore, what'd be the point of him directing some of the movies. Butterflies could also play a big role here.
 
All this. Though I think Bones could work well as the remaining character.
Another thought is that this could radically change Star Trek. Wasn't TVH written by Leonard Nemoy? Since he isn't going to play Spock anymore, what'd be the point of him directing some of the movies. Butterflies could also play a big role here.

He was getting in to directing at the point in his career (he directed Search for Spock). I could see him directing more Star Trek movies as well.

One thing this could do is bring some of the other characters (Sulu, Scotty, etc.) to the forefront.
 
I’m guessing you avoid the “Remember” scene and the soft landing, then.

You would really need a Spock-type on board, though it’s going to be tough to get someone who works as well with Shatner than Nimoy. Sulu, Bones, Scotty, etc. don’t work well for that role.
 

Tovarich

Banned
I can see potential for amusement if Kirk had been the crossover character for the reboots.

Bill Shatner embarrassing Chris Pine in front of everyone, passing on PUA tips like a recently divorced uncle on a night out with his nephew.
 
"Remember" could still be used. The Katra is normally brought home without bringing the body back--could be a poignant farewll scene. (Can't type much--kitty helping!)
 
Going forward, Spock is certainly replaced with a Spock-like character for the remainder of the TOS movies - either something like the character Xon from the unproduced Star Trek: Phase II, a pure Vulcan, or an android similar to OTL's Data.
 
The Search for Spock would be radically different if Spock remained dead. The Voyage Home would probably work without Spock. The Final Frontier would probably be ok as would The Undiscovered Country. We would then not have the episodes Unification in TNG and also the reboot movies would have to have a different character as the remaining character from our universe such as Kirk.

All this. Though I think Bones could work well as the remaining character.
Another thought is that this could radically change Star Trek. Wasn't TVH written by Leonard Nemoy? Since he isn't going to play Spock anymore, what'd be the point of him directing some of the movies. Butterflies could also play a big role here.

I think it's entirely possible that Nimoy could have directed, even with a permanent Spock death.

The problem is, however, that the remaining movies would be radically different. I think a Star Trek III that looks for Spock without bringing him back physically would be cruel, and an unmitigated disaster. Better not to tease the fans. Assuming the movies continue, I would say there would at least be one time travel movie a la Voyage Home.

I’m guessing you avoid the “Remember” scene and the soft landing, then.

"Remember" could still be used. The Katra is normally brought home without bringing the body back--could be a poignant farewll scene. (Can't type much--kitty helping!)

The "Remember" scene was meant to be a lose plot thread that a future film could pick up, if need be. Hence, the katra plot of III. Bennett had no idea where to go with that thread at the time. I guess the thread would be picked up in one way or another in a future film.

You would really need a Spock-type on board, though it’s going to be tough to get someone who works as well with Shatner than Nimoy. Sulu, Bones, Scotty, etc. don’t work well for that role.

Going forward, Spock is certainly replaced with a Spock-like character for the remainder of the TOS movies - either something like the character Xon from the unproduced Star Trek: Phase II, a pure Vulcan, or an android similar to OTL's Data.

Savaiik, lives

I think so. One gets the sense that Nimoy really didn't want to return to Star Trek, despite some of his denials later in life. Xon was created for Phase II with this assumption. As I recall, he had to be drug kicking and screaming into the Motion Picture, and was lured into TWOK because of the promise that Spock would die. Around this time, he appeared to have changed his mind. Nevertheless, many who worked on Star Trek were under the assumption that Nimoy didn't want to return.

Now, obviously, Xon probably wouldn't have been revived. I think from everything at the time, it looked like they were going for Saavik to be the Spock-type. If Nimoy didn't return, it's likely that she would have replaced him, regardless who played her.
 
I would say that Nimoy would have directed the third star trek film and may well have still written and directed the fourth film but I am not sure would have had much involvement beyond that.

Perhaps Xon would have been the Spock replacement for TMP if Nimoy hadn't been persuaded to return and then he might not have died in TWOK and then we would have a completely different third film and Xon could have taken Spocks place in the fourth film except that in this version events would probably not have been written by Nimoy so it would have also been totally different. Perhaps if Nimoy didn't direct then Shatner would not have wanted to direct and we might not have got TFF which was quite poor apart from the scenes between Kirk, Spock and McCoy.
 
Going forward, Spock is certainly replaced with a Spock-like character for the remainder of the TOS movies - either something like the character Xon from the unproduced Star Trek: Phase II, a pure Vulcan, or an android similar to OTL's Data.
That's what Saavik was for. She basically replaced Spock in the film anyway after the initial attack (which is theorized to be when he was supposed to have died before the leaks).

Savaiik, lives

Huh? Saavik did live.
 
Bringing back Spock was a massive mistake from a character standpoint, just as it was for Jean in X-Men. It cheapened the sacrifice. Also, AIUI, Leonard wanted out, & asked for the death scene (or only signed on because of it).

Saavik should've replaced him...& that leaves the question of casting Kirstie for *"ST3". It also raises the question, does that mean she can't (doesn't) do "Cheers"?

Does it impact the success of later films? Probably. I doubt it cripples any of them. Is it enough they stop a film or two sooner? Maybe...which may mean "Generations" doesn't happen (assuming *"TNG" gets made at all...).

Does it mean mean the reboot has to use somebody else? IDK. Maybe there is no reboot.:cool: (Unfortunately, that'd also mean no, "Live long & suck it".:cryingface::openedeyewink:)

Does it influence Paramount toward getting "Phase 2" (or "TNG") in production sooner? Maybe...& that has big implications for the franchise, & not tiny ones culturally.

My thinking is, with the movies, using the "Big 5" on TV is no longer an option, so we see *"TNG". Casting is bound to differ somewhat. Is there a prospect Gates & Wil aren't available, & so don't get cast?:cool::cool: (Or, please God, the characters are never created.:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool: ) Data ditto? Does it also mean Yar is less an idiot? (Seriously, she attacks a super-powerful Q barehanded.:eek::confounded: How did she live long enough to become Security Officer?:rolleyes: )

Starting a bit earlier means "DS9", if it happens at all, with Gene still alive, will never have the strong religious overtones, & Section 31 will never happen. (It shouldn't have anyhow, given Gene's underlying theory of human development.)

Does an earlier "TNG" mean it's less successful? Given different production people, & writers, IDK; maybe they're smarter about hiring SF staff writers, or buying scripts from actual SF writers, same as Gene did on "TOS".

Does even a moderately-successful "TOS" affect the creation of other shows? "SG-1"? "SGA"? "B5"? Does it help "BSG" Gen 1 survive, or was that too costly in any case?

Does it impact more modest SF shows, like "Knight Rider" or "Mann & Machine"?

I don't imagine it affects "Star Wars" sequels or prequels at all.
 
I would say that Nimoy would have directed the third star trek film and may well have still written and directed the fourth film but I am not sure would have had much involvement beyond that.

This, most likely. A plausible PoD could be an irrevocable breakdown between Shatner and Nimoy.

Perhaps Xon would have been the Spock replacement for TMP if Nimoy hadn't been persuaded to return and then he might not have died in TWOK and then we would have a completely different third film and Xon could have taken Spocks place in the fourth film except that in this version events would probably not have been written by Nimoy so it would have also been totally different. Perhaps if Nimoy didn't direct then Shatner would not have wanted to direct and we might not have got TFF which was quite poor apart from the scenes between Kirk, Spock and McCoy.

Take Nimoy out of Star Trek permanently after TWOK, then III, and, assuming the best IV and beyond would be completely different. One good butterfly would be that V would have never existed, albeit the possibility of a worse movie would still exist in this scenario.

If Nimoy didn't return for TMP, then II would also be radically different. I could see the ridiculous Time-traveling Klingons plot to be on the table.


That's what Saavik was for. She basically replaced Spock in the film anyway after the initial attack (which is theorized to be when he was supposed to have died before the leaks).

The the first volume of the D.C. series has an interesting story where Saavik undergoes Plok Tow, and needs to reach her mate in order to complete the ritual of Pon Farr. What's funny is that her mate is "Xon."



Huh? Saavik did live.

Only in our hearts. :p
 
Bringing back Spock was a massive mistake from a character standpoint, just as it was for Jean in X-Men. It cheapened the sacrifice. Also, AIUI, Leonard wanted out, & asked for the death scene (or only signed on because of it).

Saavik should've replaced him...& that leaves the question of casting Kirstie for *"ST3". It also raises the question, does that mean she can't (doesn't) do "Cheers"?

Does it impact the success of later films? Probably. I doubt it cripples any of them. Is it enough they stop a film or two sooner? Maybe...which may mean "Generations" doesn't happen (assuming *"TNG" gets made at all...).

Does it mean mean the reboot has to use somebody else? IDK. Maybe there is no reboot.:cool: (Unfortunately, that'd also mean no, "Live long & suck it".:cryingface::openedeyewink:)

Does it influence Paramount toward getting "Phase 2" (or "TNG") in production sooner? Maybe...& that has big implications for the franchise, & not tiny ones culturally.

Alley would still be up in the air. The budget would have to be fairly good, plus her agent and/or Paramount not screwing up could save her in casting. Unless Saavik grows to become a much more recognized cultural icon than OTL, I doubt Alley would have difficulty finding work outside of Star Trek outside of obvious personality issues.

I doubt TNG would be made in this scenario, unless III and a hypothetical IV are major successes, which are definitely not guaranteed without Spock.
 
No, I mean she literally lived. We see her in Star Trek IV, and she was originally going to appear in Star trek VI in Valeris's role.

I was joking. While she did indeed live in canon, she died for all practical purposes when she was dumped on Vulcan in IV.
 
I doubt Alley would have difficulty finding work outside
I was thinking scheduling conflict more than typecasting. Or contractual issues.
I doubt TNG would be made in this scenario, unless III and a hypothetical IV are major successes, which are definitely not guaranteed without Spock.
IMO, the fanbase would support "TNG" regardless. Would Paramount think there's enough interest outside the Trekkers to greenlight? Maybe not... How big does III have to be, to do that? Or, rather, how much less well than OTL will kill it? I haven't a clue, & I'm not sure anyone does.
 
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