For the sake of a concrete POD, let's say around March 1965. Operation Rolling Thunder still commences, but LBJ decides against putting boots on the ground, instead sticking to the current policy of military "advisors" and slowly winding down the amount of US troops in the region over the next three years. What impact does this have on pop culture, the absence of the American disaffectedness that followed Vietnam, as well as the potential butterflying of President Nixon and the like? Your thoughts?
Pop Culture Sans Vietnam
- Thread starter woweed
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Note: If Tonkin is manufactured, we're committed.
If we're not committed to saving South Vietnam, then it falls pretty quickly. That probably seals Laos and Cambodia's fate, too, and perhaps steps up insurgency in Thailand. This Communist swamping of Southeast Asia may kill Johnson's reelection as badly as committing to Vietnam did.
But let's say LBJ focuses on The Great Society and maybe more dick-swinging in the Western Hemisphere. The economy is humming along, though not supercharged by the war. There's still plenty for the youth to rebel against--at 7 million students (compared to less than 2 million a generation before), they are a formidable faction.
Civil Rights remains the polarizing cry, even if LBJ can make the plight of the inner city a little more tolerable. The Generation Gap still exists because of the Baby Boom. British culture is virtually identical, as the UK stayed out of the war, and the POD is post-British Invasion.
Psychedelica is unaffected. However, if LBJ gets reelected, it may be less demonized. That was more of a Nixon bugaboo.
Maybe the money and energy we spent on Vietnam gets more applied to the Space Program--we beat the Russkies in more intangible ways. And/OR without Vietnam, maybe detente is arrived at earlier. Mao still does his thing, but the Soviets become chic. If Southeast Asia is mostly Soviet rather than Chinese clients, and Mao is the Great Satan of the '60s, maybe that's okay.
So, without Nixon, without the American defeat in Vietnam, come the early 70s, the White House myth remains intact, the Soviets are our partners in progress, and Trololo is a Top 40 hit played on American Bandstand. And a joint Moonbase is announced in '73.
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I’ve made a thread about this before - specifically if the youth would still rebel if there was no war in Vietnam or if the 60s would just be the 50s lite. The general consensus I have received is that something like the counterculture would still happen, but it would lack the militarism of OTL and - to a lesser extent - might be more confined to college students rather than everyday people.
In other words, it would be less “Fortunate Son”, and more “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds”.
In other words, it would be less “Fortunate Son”, and more “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds”.
Vietnam had a long shadow with tv and movies.
Al in Quantum Leap won't have been a POW, Magnum won't have his experiences, Rambo just won't happen.
Will MASH still happen if it's really just about Korea and not stealthily Vietnam?
Of course no Tour of Duty or China Beach.
Even Jem, a cartoon about 80s glam rockers. had a Vietnam war connection.
Al in Quantum Leap won't have been a POW, Magnum won't have his experiences, Rambo just won't happen.
Will MASH still happen if it's really just about Korea and not stealthily Vietnam?
Of course no Tour of Duty or China Beach.
Even Jem, a cartoon about 80s glam rockers. had a Vietnam war connection.
Another thing (this is a big one): Does Star Wars even exist:
www.cbr.com
How the Vietnam War Inspired George Lucas' Star Wars Vision
Star Wars' original trilogy had many inspirations, but one of George Lucas' main influences on the world-building of the films was the Vietnam War.
www.cbr.com
Sunset Strip didn't have anything to do with Vietnam. The Summer of Love was something of a backlash, but there's enough strife in the world to make a message of peace worth sending. So San Fran and flowers still happens.
Rather than militant, I think the counterculture is more hopeful, less bitter.
The obvious answer is no but on the other hand,the concept of SW was very generic fantasy but in space much like his influence flash Gordon,so would be very different and not as successful but once again was returns the one hit hard with the Vietnam comparasion to begin withAnother thing (this is a big one): Does Star Wars even exist:
How the Vietnam War Inspired George Lucas' Star Wars Vision
Star Wars' original trilogy had many inspirations, but one of George Lucas' main influences on the world-building of the films was the Vietnam War.
Yeah, and if I recall, the inspiration for Star Wars IOTL came from Flash Gordon and Akira Kurosawa’s films.
Yeah but as Lucas said the Vietnam shadow loomed large on him too, so without it would be more conventional
So Here's the probable sociopolitical context: LBJ does a symbolic stand in thailand(say no more than 10,000 american casualties 1965-75), malaysia and indonesia and easily cruises to reelection via "holding the line" against communism. US west coast cities get Little Saigons in 1965 instead of 1975.
You see some old school cold war liberal succeeding LBJ in 1973 with dems in office till 1981 or if they navigate the late 70s well enough 1985. I can see the dems pulling a 24 years like FDR did but the GOP would get back in eventually even with an overton window well to the left of OTL. GOP weaker, democrats stronger than OTL(difference is they retain more of the pre-1960s coalition while the 1960s "new left" ends up having to assimilate/compromise instead of hijacking the party.
Even worse sino-soviet relations with Vietnam as a bilateral issue between them earlier on. This means the US in the 70s and early 80s when it's shifting to favoring Beijing over Taipei gets more of what it wants. Beijing has to recognize Taiwan, liberalize politically/economically significantly more than OTL(not a democracy, probably a one party illiberal state with rigged elections with the CCP winning consistently), make ironclad promises for 99 years of autonomy for HK/Macao(essentially both are within the chinese tariff walls/don't have independent diplomacy but are otherwise only chinese on paper).
US gets national healthcare in 1965 without Vietnam to distract LBJ and an unconditional basic income in 1973 or 1974 under HHH or Jackson.
Without either Nixon's monetary policy Shenanigans to try winnivg or the economy overheating bc of defense spending in the mid-late 1960s you don't see the great inflation of the 1970s to early 80s. What also helps is the end of bretton woods is both more gradual and better planned. The energy crisis in 1973-4 and again in 1979 hurt the economy a bit, but without inflation it's not as much of a Big Deal as OTL.
As for what this does to pop culture? aking the economy better than OTL means less consolidation of corporations or OTL's boomers crabs in a bucket mentality towards the economy. Both trends mean wider variety and due to simple less negative sum society more tolerance.
What does this boost in tolerance mean? Well, Disco takes a severe hit in the end of the 70s but never fully dies, probably ending up the default term for electronic music for a long time. You probably have "Disco" being used as the term for like pre-2000s electronic music.
Less of a crabs in a bucket mentality, less negative/zero-sum economy and some kinds of risktaking looking less problematic means you see less ah intrusive parenting. Essneitally less interest than OTL in regularing kid/teen pop culture. Less controversies about content of cartoons/videogames/whatever. Weaker or at least more willing to look the other way Standards & Practices departments in corporations butterflies out alot of stuff.
You see some old school cold war liberal succeeding LBJ in 1973 with dems in office till 1981 or if they navigate the late 70s well enough 1985. I can see the dems pulling a 24 years like FDR did but the GOP would get back in eventually even with an overton window well to the left of OTL. GOP weaker, democrats stronger than OTL(difference is they retain more of the pre-1960s coalition while the 1960s "new left" ends up having to assimilate/compromise instead of hijacking the party.
Even worse sino-soviet relations with Vietnam as a bilateral issue between them earlier on. This means the US in the 70s and early 80s when it's shifting to favoring Beijing over Taipei gets more of what it wants. Beijing has to recognize Taiwan, liberalize politically/economically significantly more than OTL(not a democracy, probably a one party illiberal state with rigged elections with the CCP winning consistently), make ironclad promises for 99 years of autonomy for HK/Macao(essentially both are within the chinese tariff walls/don't have independent diplomacy but are otherwise only chinese on paper).
US gets national healthcare in 1965 without Vietnam to distract LBJ and an unconditional basic income in 1973 or 1974 under HHH or Jackson.
Without either Nixon's monetary policy Shenanigans to try winnivg or the economy overheating bc of defense spending in the mid-late 1960s you don't see the great inflation of the 1970s to early 80s. What also helps is the end of bretton woods is both more gradual and better planned. The energy crisis in 1973-4 and again in 1979 hurt the economy a bit, but without inflation it's not as much of a Big Deal as OTL.
As for what this does to pop culture? aking the economy better than OTL means less consolidation of corporations or OTL's boomers crabs in a bucket mentality towards the economy. Both trends mean wider variety and due to simple less negative sum society more tolerance.
What does this boost in tolerance mean? Well, Disco takes a severe hit in the end of the 70s but never fully dies, probably ending up the default term for electronic music for a long time. You probably have "Disco" being used as the term for like pre-2000s electronic music.
Less of a crabs in a bucket mentality, less negative/zero-sum economy and some kinds of risktaking looking less problematic means you see less ah intrusive parenting. Essneitally less interest than OTL in regularing kid/teen pop culture. Less controversies about content of cartoons/videogames/whatever. Weaker or at least more willing to look the other way Standards & Practices departments in corporations butterflies out alot of stuff.
You're very optimistic, but I think a goper win in 1972... Who is the great question
No Vietnam mess so no reason for them to win. Remember this isn't OTL post-watergate where voters are FICKLE.
Why do you think voters gained the attention spans of goldfish as a result of Watergate?
Increased polarization probably.
Plus you know, in this ATL you havw a smoother 1960s and 1970s so weaker Backlash forces. Stronger democratic coalition than OTL with the white working class and south taking longer to shift GOP helping keep Ds in power longer,
Or, conversely without them needing to think about war in Vietnam, desegregation could take up a larger share of the White Working Class(tm)'s mental real estate
Sorry, I didn't mean it to see that I was contradicting you. I was agreeing.
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Sure, could happen. Doesn't have to necessarily contradict my scenario since the AIP/GOP fighting over the right half of the electorate acts as a nice little vote-splitter to help get dems over the hump.
Remember, we saw the AIP in OTL die off so soon as a seperate serious force because Wallace got paralyzed. Remove that and the AIP could have acted as a serious vote-splitter for a decade or two.
It's possible (not likely admittedly due to butterflies but then again it's up in the air and possible, a 50/50 in other words IMVHO) that John Wayne's The Green Berets (as well as the book it was adapted from) still gets produced ITTL centered on U.S. Army Special Forces acting as advisers to the ARVN.
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