Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by terranova210486, Sep 28, 2019.
You should watch the longest day in chang'an
Any ideas for Canadian television or movies?
Is this canon in KR?
Tom Brittney as Reverend Will Davenport and Robson Green as Detective Inspector Geordie Keating in BBU period crime drama Grantchester. Set in the titular village in Cambridge of the 1950s, the drama - based on novels by James Runcie - surrounds the unlikely friendship between the two leads and their frequent collaboration in solving various crimes. Like many other BBU period shows set in the post-war era, however, as well as the main subject - ie Agatha Christie-esque whodunits in the picturesque British countryside - the show works to shine a light on aspects of Union of Britain social history. In this case, a major theme is the position of the Church of England within the Union of Britain, and the position of uncertainty it existed in during the immediate aftermath of changes to legislation around organised religion - a major part of the series is the historical reclassification of clergy as equivalent to social workers, thus entitling them to a wage from the government rather than receiving zero subsidisation as had been the case immediately after the Revolution. Other themes are the still-new (in the time of the show) democratic and elective nature of the Church of England and reactions to it - Will being a supporter, while older clergy he runs into are often quietly disapproving - the rise of a new generation of clergy who believe and preach that Syndicalism is a system that Christ would have approved of, and the place of organised religion in a secular nation. Indeed, the show's leads effectively represent the latter question, with Will representing organised religion, the extremely Syndicalist Geordie representing strong secularism, yet the two still becoming friends and working well together as a consequence.
Together with a few other period shows including Call the Midwife, Grantchester gives more prominence to religion and religious characters than had been the case before. While still critical of the wealth and position of the Church of England within British society during the pre-Revolution era, praise has been given to clergy who actually did things - as seen in Grantchester with Will's constant work to support and help his parishioners, or the nursing nuns of Nonnatus House in early seasons of Call the Midwife - though at the same time, some shows note that all too often such people had to step in because in Pre-Revolution Britain the government did nothing.
French actor Fernandel as Don Camillo, the parish priest of a small Northern Italian town in the Po Valley, and Gino Servi as Peppone, the Syndicalist mayor of the town and Don Camillo's arch-rival, in the French-Italian production The Little World of Don Camillo (1952). The Don Camillo character was created by the writer Giovannino Guareschi, and despite a degree of official disapproval by both the Italian and French governments at the time of writing, the stories were successful enough that a film was made (and others, later). Despite Guareschi himself being both a Catholic and a monarchist (and periodically harassed as a consequence), the Don Camillo stories tended to be quite even-handed in terms of supporting one side or another. So while one story might show Don Camillo triumphing over some form of obstruction to the exercise of religion in the town, another story might show the Crucified Jesus in his church - the stories' other main character, and the voice of Don Camillo's conscience - instructing him to lend his support to Peppone for projects that have real, tangible benefit to the people of the town. Moreover, while Guareschi clearly regretted how the Kingdom of Italy had ended and the rise of Syndicalism, his stories strongly show that he recognised the conditions that had led to its rise, and the actual benefits it had brought following Italian re-unification. And while the Don Camillo character frequently and loudly bemoans the fact that, under Italian law, he must support himself with another profession as opposed to simply being able to work as a priest, the remarks of the Lord on the subject indicate that Guareschi was not entirely unhappy that the Church had to be more connected to the people in this way...
Whatever one's feelings on the politics of the stories, of course, the greater part of the Italian populace can agree that the stories and films are highly amusing.
It warms my heart, that ITTL Don Camillo still exists.
Feeling's mutual - I couldn't have those stories not exist.
And I don't think it's too much of a stretch. For all the character and writer's disapproval of Communism, the books often showed that both Guareschi and Don Camillo in-universe perfectly understood why a lot of poor people in Italy turned to it, so having the version I outline here and the two leads often end up cooperating so...I think it works.
The theme of the stories wouldn´t actually so different. Don Camillo has most of the time to operate from a weaker position, simply because the Communists are so strong in the area, so he most of the time has to act alone (with a little bit help of Jesus). So this wouldn´t really change.
What side shop would Don Camillo have?
Father Brown is that you?
Really? What do you have to do to get it?
This is true enough, alright. And I can see a lot of the same stories playing out fairly similarly - the old schoolteacher who dies getting the monarchist flag on her coffin, stuff like that.
Carpentry would be appropriate... Not least because I have this image of him complaining to the Lord about having to work like this to support his parochial duties and the Lord going 'Just what do you think I was doing?'
Similar, but no - Grantchester is a show that exists IRL, and it's about a CoE vicar who does amateur sleuthing. Fun show, actually.
It was postet in an articel about Kaiserreich. The articel is mentioned on Reditt.
Both of these are very interesting, makes me wonder at the state of religion and the like in Syndicalism, (by the way what is the status of the Vatican?) although this line does make me feel A bit weary:
This isn't really practical often, a Priest has a duty to his flock to make sure that everything is running right and attend to there needs. this means organizing the parish and keepping the finaces/logistics working (already crunching a lot of time) then of course there's side instances like say a man is dying and needs last rites. He needs to be ready to execute his holy obligation not tied up at work.
still quite interesting, and makes me wonder how to have Church -Syndie relations in my TL, I don't want to do a stereottypical Extreme Left works to exterminate the Church (except perhaps in Iberia because honestly given the track record of the CNT-FAI, that's exactly what they'd do) but I do intend for them to become a beacon of resistance in occupied and to a lesser extent orignal Syndie countries...tricky.
This would be fitting. But I remember the story, where Don Camillo and Pepone has to act as "strike breakers" on a dairy farm. There Camillo helps a cow to deliver a calve. So maybe he could do something with animals.
This just brought up another question for me, what happened to Agatha ITTL? I doubt she would like the Syndicalists one bit but and if she had a choice would go Exile (which given the fate of Canada has the possibility to go very badly for her) but she may not have a choice given the speed of the revolution.
As I see it, it can vary widely.
In Britain ITTL, after the Revolution it wasn't so great: the Church of England in particular lost a lot of land to redistribution, there was a tendency to see the hierarchy as part of the Establishment (which to be fair a lot of the bishops were), and things were generally a bit raw. However, after things calmed down - after the war especially - the government recognised 'People are still religious, and clergy can play a useful role in helping people with various issues'. So clergy are now officially classed as social workers and they get paid (though some stuff gets lost - ITTL's Grantchester has the main character cooking his own dinner and ruefully going 'Sometimes I wish vicars still had housekeepers...'). Though to benefit from this, the CoE and other non-Catholic churches had to agree to new structures, a democratic way of doing things, etc. The CoE agreed after some internal debates, and the Presbyterian Church is/was fairly democratic anyway, so they had little issue with it. The Methodists were more skeptical, but got on board eventually.
In North America, I can see things shaking down similarly. By today, both it and would be extremely secular but would have full freedom of religion. So all religions allowed, no preferential treatment for any, and no tax breaks.
France would probably be more hard-line anti-clerical, because, well, France. Ditto Iberia.
Italy I see as being similar in the initial phase, but running into an issue that ties into the fate of the Vatican. One thing that struck me on reading the Don Camillo books IRL was that while the Communists are shown as very loudly anti the Church, anti-clerical, etc.... They still go to Church, have their children baptised, venerate the saints, and in one story where Don Camillo gets replaced they're the loudest in telling the new priest 'You're doing it wrong!'*. So if we assume an attitude like this among a lot of even fairly solidly Syndicalist people...I can see the government enacting certain laws involving redistributing certain Church property and other stuff, but being kind of leery of touching the Vatican beyond maybe the occasional shakedown for money. Recognising 'let's not push people too far...' Depending on the government of the day, obviously.
Others...still working it out, sorry But I'm going for a general thing where religion, after some initial ups and downs, isn't persecuted but there's no special favour shown to any either, and religious organisations don't have political clout.
*Don't know if you've read it, but there's one hilarious story in it where Don Camillo comes up against a Communist couple who 'scandalously' live together without being married, because they're die-hard Communists and believe in free love. When they have a child, he demands loudly that they get married before he baptises it...only for them to both embarrassedly admit that they already got married in a Church, but beg him not to tell anyone because they have a reputation as Communists to keep up.
Take your point. I was thinking that the government at the time would be going 'Well, we're not making you be a priest, if you just want to be a normal Comrade then it's entirely your choice...'. Though of course, the idea would be a lot of priests either would be 'self-employed' or would have allowances made if they need to disappear for parochial reasons.
And of course, the government might change policies sometime after those stories
One idea: you could have them do what the East Germans did at one point. You could go to church, no issues there...but if you were known to be religious you couldn't be a member of the Communist Party, which was a major disadvantage in day-to-day life. Maybe something similar to that?
That's a cool idea either
I'll have to think about that...
If I remember theg*´s lore right, things go first bad for the International, till Savinkov and Syndie-America intervene. Let say, in Italy it is similiar and great parts of the SRI are overrun by a natpop Italian Republic. The Legionaries want to purge the Reds, but have also no real love for the church. Some people like Camillo and Peponne go to the mountains to fight, other Syndies and Priests maybe land together in concentration camps and after the liberation the whole relationship is a bit arkward. The Papal state manage to stay neutral and Savinkov says after the War to the Syndies:"Hey. lets keep the Pope around. Maybe we need some day a neutral mediator!"
You're right in terms of my lore, definitely. Basically, France is getting hammered until Savinkov invades Germany's satellite nations. At this point, America intervenes, both to help their allies...and also because they don't particularly like the idea of the Vozhd getting to rampage across much of Europe unopposed.
And that's some good thinking Thanks!
I mean that does seem abit assholish of the state and special treatmenty of the church ("Alright folks we'll give you a bone but only if you possibly bend your theolgy to work with our Ideolgy") but I guess that's what to be expected, certainly alot better than how it could turn out.
Yeah...by the time the Iberians are off there victory drug, there would be alot of Dead priests...
Yeah thats sounds alot like something the italians would have alright.
Havent read it but Now I will...
Okay so more like an officall requirement which has loopholes, that works very well.
Not sure this could work exactly, for reasons I mention below:
I doubt there'd be a way the Church could have zero political clout because at the end of the day they have opinions on the issues, and as long as their allowed to say what they think about said issues, a certain amount of voters will take said opinions into account when there casting there ballot. As such certain politicans will want to tap into these people weather out of a genuine feelings or simple vote getting.
Yeah that would work very well as it plays into what im going for with the Syndie's (ie not over the top Communist totalist hellhole stuff but more subtle corruption and aimed attacks while keeping a smiley face) and it could vary from place to place.
that would be fun to see and I think that would work very well.
and apparently Theg agrees, isnt internet Brainstorming grand
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