As the title says, how would the pop culture of the Confederated States look like if it survives until present day? Would the pop culture of the CSA become as widespread and mainstream as American culture in OTL?
Pop culture of a surviving CSA
- Thread starter GenericAltHistorian
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I think, at least early on, Confederate pop culture would have a lot of pro-slavery stuff, with anti-Tom literature probably being written again and continuing for as long as slavery lasts.
Pro-slavery shilling until 1880-1900 when slavery's tossed
Much more conservative than the union until the late 1970s to about 2000 -- basically whenever *jim crow is tossed. My guess is closer to the late 70s end of things for the timeframe.
rapid liberalization once the jim crow/seperate development laws go away. More focus on identity politics due to being less white than OTL US, combined with more feminism due to being more north european/anglo in it's whitep opulation. More prudish than OTL US on alot or ttl's union.
More culture wars/politicization of the culture than even OTL US for the reason that the CS would have had more of a tradition of censorship for ideological reasons than OTL US out of paranoia. First it'd be ofr slavery, then to protect white supremacy and then the current censorship excuse is to stop racism/sexism/etc
Much more conservative than the union until the late 1970s to about 2000 -- basically whenever *jim crow is tossed. My guess is closer to the late 70s end of things for the timeframe.
rapid liberalization once the jim crow/seperate development laws go away. More focus on identity politics due to being less white than OTL US, combined with more feminism due to being more north european/anglo in it's whitep opulation. More prudish than OTL US on alot or ttl's union.
More culture wars/politicization of the culture than even OTL US for the reason that the CS would have had more of a tradition of censorship for ideological reasons than OTL US out of paranoia. First it'd be ofr slavery, then to protect white supremacy and then the current censorship excuse is to stop racism/sexism/etc
Bytor
Monthly Donor
I presume you mean exported globally like American pop culture OTL? Probably not as the CSA would have been an economically and technologically backwards nation, perhaps even a "third world" one because of sanctions similar to what South Africa endured because of apartheid.
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Well it depends on a lot of things, like when slavery ends, what replaces slavery and for how long, the allies of the CSA, it's relationship with the USA, etc. In a good scenario, slavery is ended around 1900 and replaced with some kind of Jim Crow system. Prior to this date most of the South's culture would be divided between classes, races, and regions, and there wouldn't be a concept of "pop culture." Appalachia would probably continue more or less the same as OTL. Black culture could either be more somber with extended slavery or less somber than OTL with a presumably less violent transition to Jim Crow if the South's able to do it at it's own pace. ITTL there's no concept of the Emancipation Proclamation, assuming a TL-191 style victory, so I'd lean towards black culture being less somber than OTL by the fact that abolitionist ideology wouldn't be as prevalent, and the slaves maybe wouldn't have felt like they came so close to freedom under Reconstruction only to lose it all under Jim Crow. In this case it would just be a slow, gradual climb out of slavery into Jim Crow, each generation only knowing a better reality than their forefathers. That means blues music changes, which changes rock and roll, which changes a lot. Post 1900 during the Jim Crow era you'll see an emergence of black culture, and the slow permeation of styles like this alt-blues into Confederate society. Gospel/religious music would be a big, if not larger, component in Southern culture than OTL, possibly fueling a less somber air about TTL Southern culture.
There'd be two different white cultures, especially pre-190 - poor white and planter. The planters will follow the trends in Europe, so they'd be pretty much whatever British/French culture was like at the time with slightly more conservative attitudes. The poor whites would pick up a few things from the blacks, and mix it a little with their own experiences fighting in a bloody war only to go back living in abject poverty later on. On the plus side their homes and cities aren't torched, so overall a more positive message.
In terms of written culture, the South is probably about the same as OTL. Blacks won't put out much until the end of slavery, but I don't think much would change among poor whites, and the upper class would be even more wealthy without the destruction of the war, and they'd be the ones with access to printing presses and European education, so they'd be the torchbearers in Southern literature, anyways. I'd imagine that Southern literature would follow closely European, particularly British, trends, and instead of looking at the war as a Lost Cause, look at it as a magnificent David vs. Goliath triumph, possibly leading to a Southern culture that, on the whole, vindicates the sort of aristocratic fight-for-your-honor-system even more.
By the mid 20th century is when pop culture would really take off in earnest, as by then people would have the money to access consumer goods, internal development connecting Southern cities will have been around for several years, and tolerance of black and poor white cultural forms would be greater, especially among the youth, who are the drivers of pop culture anyways. Given the more positive outlook of this alt-South, it's possible that some alternate rock 'n' roll would take hold in the 50s/60s, and it's possible that, given a more religious influence in Southern culture, it would be more religious focused as opposed to "frivolous" and fun seeking, and generally better accepted among the population at large than IOTL. Fashion would probably remain about the same as OTL, with skirts being more common longer in Southern society given it's more religious and conservative roots. Things like jeans are probably about the same as OTL - yeah some Christian fundie types won't appreciate them, but they'll be a symbol of the poor whites' working class roots and the adventurous spirit that Conquered-The-Indians, so it would have considerable acceptance and popularity among the working and middle classes. In this same light, leather could as well. Your Classy-Southern-Gentleman type is going to favor a suit and tie like IOTL, maybe with a broad brimmed hat instead of fedora and lighter clothes given the hotter climate. Cotton products would be favored over woolen ones.
Civil Rights is going to come up eventually, probably by the late 70s or early 80s. At this point more solemn, folk kind of music would gain traction among black activists, and probably find it's way into the white Southern working class. I'd imagine, though, that most whites would still favor the more upbeat culture of earlier times. Whether or not things like hip hop and rap come to be in the South depends on how Civil Rights and the Confederacy post alt-WW2/alt-Cold War (assuming they happen mostly as OTL) goes. If it's like South Africa where the South transitions to a more equal society mostly peacefully, I'd imagine that you'll get an earlier, harder drill rap style among Southern artists. If it's like Yugoslavia or Rhodesia with a lot of infighting, racial conflict, etc. it isn't happening at all, at least it isn't starting in the South.
There'd be two different white cultures, especially pre-190 - poor white and planter. The planters will follow the trends in Europe, so they'd be pretty much whatever British/French culture was like at the time with slightly more conservative attitudes. The poor whites would pick up a few things from the blacks, and mix it a little with their own experiences fighting in a bloody war only to go back living in abject poverty later on. On the plus side their homes and cities aren't torched, so overall a more positive message.
In terms of written culture, the South is probably about the same as OTL. Blacks won't put out much until the end of slavery, but I don't think much would change among poor whites, and the upper class would be even more wealthy without the destruction of the war, and they'd be the ones with access to printing presses and European education, so they'd be the torchbearers in Southern literature, anyways. I'd imagine that Southern literature would follow closely European, particularly British, trends, and instead of looking at the war as a Lost Cause, look at it as a magnificent David vs. Goliath triumph, possibly leading to a Southern culture that, on the whole, vindicates the sort of aristocratic fight-for-your-honor-system even more.
By the mid 20th century is when pop culture would really take off in earnest, as by then people would have the money to access consumer goods, internal development connecting Southern cities will have been around for several years, and tolerance of black and poor white cultural forms would be greater, especially among the youth, who are the drivers of pop culture anyways. Given the more positive outlook of this alt-South, it's possible that some alternate rock 'n' roll would take hold in the 50s/60s, and it's possible that, given a more religious influence in Southern culture, it would be more religious focused as opposed to "frivolous" and fun seeking, and generally better accepted among the population at large than IOTL. Fashion would probably remain about the same as OTL, with skirts being more common longer in Southern society given it's more religious and conservative roots. Things like jeans are probably about the same as OTL - yeah some Christian fundie types won't appreciate them, but they'll be a symbol of the poor whites' working class roots and the adventurous spirit that Conquered-The-Indians, so it would have considerable acceptance and popularity among the working and middle classes. In this same light, leather could as well. Your Classy-Southern-Gentleman type is going to favor a suit and tie like IOTL, maybe with a broad brimmed hat instead of fedora and lighter clothes given the hotter climate. Cotton products would be favored over woolen ones.
Civil Rights is going to come up eventually, probably by the late 70s or early 80s. At this point more solemn, folk kind of music would gain traction among black activists, and probably find it's way into the white Southern working class. I'd imagine, though, that most whites would still favor the more upbeat culture of earlier times. Whether or not things like hip hop and rap come to be in the South depends on how Civil Rights and the Confederacy post alt-WW2/alt-Cold War (assuming they happen mostly as OTL) goes. If it's like South Africa where the South transitions to a more equal society mostly peacefully, I'd imagine that you'll get an earlier, harder drill rap style among Southern artists. If it's like Yugoslavia or Rhodesia with a lot of infighting, racial conflict, etc. it isn't happening at all, at least it isn't starting in the South.
It should be remembered that there will be divides between Louisiana and other states at least linguistically and in motifs, yet united in their historical upholding of plantation colonialism. So, try not to limit the discussion to the Anglophone sector if the CS.
Do remind ourselves that in 1860, the northern sector of the country was the more Protestant religious or at least could be argued as such. Without otl events, this may remain the case.
Do remind ourselves that in 1860, the northern sector of the country was the more Protestant religious or at least could be argued as such. Without otl events, this may remain the case.
Eventually the North is going to get stupidly rich and highly educated, and become less religious and more libertine (money plus education leads to a lot of questioning). The same cannot be said of the South; it'll be poor and backwards compared to the South of OTL, let alone the North in either timeline. Expect a lot of Confederate Content laws; so-and-so much TV, film, etc. must be locally-produced, to avoid being totally swamped by the media giant next door.
It'll be conservative and racist; the morality of film, television, comics, will be a battleground for the heart and soul of the middle class, as ever, and the middle class in an independent Confederacy is going to be small, white, and increasingly nervous. It won't be exported much, I'd expect; a lot of it will be knockoffs of popular US media (Confederate comics will have a devil of a time making ideologically kosher versions of US rags), some... unique... pro-slavery stuff from the postbellum, pre-emancipation period.
That said, the children of the upper crust in Dixie are likely to be a flamboyant and dissipated lot indeed. Some of them will come home and put a local spin on what they learned in prestigious US schools. Early filmmaking needs a whole lot of natural light; you could see an early boom that peters out as *Hollywood really starts to become a steamroller, as the technology goes from being hobbyist-affordable to being complex and expensive stuff requiring more and more educated labor on the back end (talkies might kill the Confederate film industry; so too could a lot of other innovations. It would be fragile). You might see occasional eccentrics of the Howard Hughes variety cross the border and make a name for themselves in the US.
It'll be conservative and racist; the morality of film, television, comics, will be a battleground for the heart and soul of the middle class, as ever, and the middle class in an independent Confederacy is going to be small, white, and increasingly nervous. It won't be exported much, I'd expect; a lot of it will be knockoffs of popular US media (Confederate comics will have a devil of a time making ideologically kosher versions of US rags), some... unique... pro-slavery stuff from the postbellum, pre-emancipation period.
That said, the children of the upper crust in Dixie are likely to be a flamboyant and dissipated lot indeed. Some of them will come home and put a local spin on what they learned in prestigious US schools. Early filmmaking needs a whole lot of natural light; you could see an early boom that peters out as *Hollywood really starts to become a steamroller, as the technology goes from being hobbyist-affordable to being complex and expensive stuff requiring more and more educated labor on the back end (talkies might kill the Confederate film industry; so too could a lot of other innovations. It would be fragile). You might see occasional eccentrics of the Howard Hughes variety cross the border and make a name for themselves in the US.
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Thomas1195
Banned
Socio-economic changes caused by industrialization and urbanization (and possibly the rise of socialism which can happen without the South), plus the possible emergence of federal secular public education in the North would make it less religious, probably less religious than the South eventually (even when assuming that the South would be less religious than OTL).
Because 1) it's poor, and because 2) religion was so central to perpetuating slavery. Poor rural areas tend to have religion at the center of social life; oftentimes the most edifying, intelligent thing you'll hear all week will come out of the church pulpit on Sunday, and a whole lot of your news and information about the world to boot.
As the North industrialized, as towns and cities filled up with more and more people, church stopped being the center of your social life; you joined clubs, you went to theaters and taverns and music halls, your work happened at both longer and more regular hours. As you became more educated, you read more books, you joined a lending library. But in rural areas, all that social life and entertainment was compressed into church and informal gatherings - many of which might still revolve around the church in some way, happening after it or in the same building. All things being equal, a less educated, more rural nation (and an independent Confederacy is going to be poorer, more rural, and less educated than the OTL South), will be more religious.
On top of all that, slavery was important enough to split denominations; Southern Baptists split explicitly with northern Baptists over slavery in 1845. You think they're going to throw that out if they win? Shit, they're going to be vindicated. They're going to trumpet it as God's providence and proof of their righteousness. A lot of the intellectual and moral arguments to defend slavery are going to come out of religious mouths, as they did OTL; preachers and people trained to think and write by bible colleges. It'll be mutually reinforcing; religion will step to the defense of the economic heart and soul of an independent Confederacy, and people whose livelihoods are tied to slavery will think well of religion. It's not rocket science.
Thomas1195
Banned
Additionally, ITTL you can expect an European-style national public (and secular) education system to exist. Something bigger than the OTL failed Blair Education Bill would be passed.
Quite the elitist-bourgeoise and patronizing take regarding rural communities.... One not really founded upon past realities, in my personal view.
Northern abolitionists advocated the conception of slavery as a decadent practice. Your take on the southern region is also entirely skewed toward the supposed reality of Anglo Protestant sectors on the east coast of the CS such as Virginia. New Orleans and Louisiana shouldn’t be forgotten, nor should you deny their lived realities. It should also be understood, that in the most rural areas of the country arose the ‘saloon’ culture and many other supposed social ills that were regarded as peak decadence and evil by northern bourgeoise urbanites in very recent periods.
here's a link to the "Pop Culture in TL-191" thread for those interested: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/pop-culture-in-tl-191.463675/
unfortunately, my morning coffee hasn't quite kicked in yet so i don't feel like typing much more right now, but i wrote a fair bit in the thread i've linked here
unfortunately, my morning coffee hasn't quite kicked in yet so i don't feel like typing much more right now, but i wrote a fair bit in the thread i've linked here
If you have an actual rebuttal to advance there, help yourself. Keep in mind I was talking specifically about the thread topic; popular culture, IE, productized mass culture for the middle class and the poor. And I don't confuse education with intelligence. Smart people are everywhere.
That said, thank you. I grew up in a small town, I got out, and I don't recall it fondly.
First, you're right about New Orleans and Louisiana more generally; I agree although how widely it'll spread and how much of it will be popularized and productized is a different question.
Abolitionists were taking populist aim as much at the Southern planter elite as at slavery, and the well-known elite tendency (everywhere) to consider the social rules as something for little people - IE, the people mass culture is aimed at, the poor and middle class. Like I said above, the Confederate elite is likely going to produce some very flamboyant characters, and likely they'll attract more moralistic ire North of the border, I agree - even discounting slavery - but this thread is about the stuff Dixie's schoolkids will pay two cents or a nickel for at the general store, what Johnny Reb reads on the bus or train and Mrs. Reb reads by the fireplace, later what they'll see at the movie theater and then watch on TV. Elite culture south of the border is a different topic - one where I think you'd be absolutely right; more libertine, less moralistic (I can't imagine the OTL energy of the Yankee schoolteacher who went south during Reconstruction isn't going to find some expression in censorship, even if a lot of those people go overseas or west ITTL), more tolerant of drug use and drinking. And perhaps some of that will filter down to the embattled middle class. But...
You really think that states which prohibited abolitionist literature in the mail, a gross violation of the First Amendment, are going to suddenly be *less* censorious of mass culture? What starts as monitoring for abolitionist sentiment will easily stretch to cover public decency. It's one area where I could see Boston and Charleston being approximately indistinguishable, in terms of how up in your business people are about what you're allowed to see, read, and hear. I could even see arguments for weaker censorship in certain periods of Southern life, for white men above the age of 21, or both, but there would be censorship; OTL and the cultural trajectory of an independent South both point in that direction. I don't think it would be quite as tight as South Africa under apartheid, but there would be similarities.
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Has anyone seen the 2004 Mockumentary, C.S.A.: The Confederate States of America? There was a part where they shown various CSA commercials and advertisements.
Imagine that, but more subtle.
Imagine that, but more subtle.
If one of the "perceived" reasons that slavery ends is international pressure (like OTL South Africa/apartheid or the Turtledove series where ending slavery is the price of continued support) there will be an extended backlash of resentment about this. If it dies a more natural economic death, not so much. In any case you'll see a social, educational, and economic system that makes the difference between slavery and "freedom" for blacks as thin as possible. A lot of culture will be based on the racial meme that any white man is better than any black man, race mixing (not just black/white) a huge no-no in the sense of open black/white relationships, white men with black/mixed mistresses one thing, a black man with a white woman get the rope. This will color everything.
Of course the victory of the noble southrons against the evil mudsill "nigger loving" Yankees will be played up as well as the "benefits" of the southern system. Cross over of things like black music in to the white mainstream directly or even as a major influence will be delayed, and comments about white kids listening to "slave music"...
Of course the victory of the noble southrons against the evil mudsill "nigger loving" Yankees will be played up as well as the "benefits" of the southern system. Cross over of things like black music in to the white mainstream directly or even as a major influence will be delayed, and comments about white kids listening to "slave music"...