Pop-culture in TL-191

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You'd think that after four wars in the span of 80 years and millions dead the United States would be more inclined towards trying to wipe out any trace southern identity. Lots of forced relocations, children getting taken to "boarding schools" and immigrants being brought in from the north and abroad.
Depends on what the Occupation looks like. If they want to de-southernize and make sure this never happens again they might emphasize that the Rank and file Southern citizens are responsible for all the CSAs crimes against humanity on the grounds that Featherston was elected, so they really have no one to blame but themselves that their cities were bombed to dust and if they gave occupational authorities too much lip 20 random people were put in front of a firing squad.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
You'd think that after four wars in the span of 80 years and millions dead the United States would be more inclined towards trying to wipe out any trace southern identity. Lots of forced relocations, children getting taken to "boarding schools" and immigrants being brought in from the north and abroad.
You know I see what you are saying here but this is one thing I actually dont agree with. As much as I despise the Freedomite ideology and what it stood for I dont think if I was a resident of the US ittl at this time that I would have supported reintergration of the CSA. Keeping them unarmed and peaceful as possible yes but not reintergated. The cost to do so is too bloody on both sides and given the sizeable number of people on both sides who wouldnt want it not really worth it. So hold them accountable for what they have done and make it clear that if they ever try anything like it again they get landed on hard- containing them not conquering them Basically what was done in Nazi Germany OTL with DeNazification- DeFreedomiting or whatever its called to put as many institutions and people in power who are friendly to the United States and making sure thats what the children are taught at school. I really think that reabsorbing the CSA back into the USA would ignore what they did during the Second Great War and I would say they dont deserve to get off that easy at the very least.
 
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They likely went with a Federation in otl Trek as it played into the American idea of federal republics and because it implies something relatively large but also relatively free
Mainly because I think that the post-war US of the 191 universe would put less emphasis on "freedom" and more emphasis on the consolidation of central power. In my opinion, it seems as though the Federation in our version of Star Trek was a looser affiliation of semi independent planets, maybe like the Commonwealth of Independent States, and maybe US officials in the 191 universe would consider such an idea to be dangerous. Maybe, maybe not.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
Depends on what the Occupation looks like. If they want to de-southernize and make sure this never happens again they might emphasize that the Rank and file Southern citizens are responsible for all the CSAs crimes against humanity on the grounds that Featherston was elected, so they really have no one to blame but themselves that their cities were bombed to dust and if they gave occupational authorities too much lip 20 random people were put in front of a firing squad.
But the thing is that if you turn around and make them all American citizens again as well doesnt that in a way effectively say we dont really hold you accountable for this and all is forgiven? I really feel that any Confederate who voted Freedomite should not be granted American citizenship at the minimum....
 
just boils down to the human tendency to want to see how bad bad could get.
But what sort of a story could be told about a world in which Jake Featherston has finally killed off all of the people he deems to be inferior? It seems that would be very little potential intrigue in such a story, because what would the conflict be? I remember reading an alternate history novel a few years ago in which a German officials finds proof that the Nazi government killed off millions of people in death camps, and after that he was hunted down and killed by members of the SS. I can't remember the title, but I think it came out back in the 1980s. Maybe a similar story could be told about the 191 universe?
 
But what sort of a story could be told about a world in which Jake Featherston has finally killed off all of the people he deems to be inferior? It seems that would be very little potential intrigue in such a story, because what would the conflict be? I remember reading an alternate history novel a few years ago in which a German officials finds proof that the Nazi government killed off millions of people in death camps, and after that he was hunted down and killed by members of the SS. I can't remember the title, but I think it came out back in the 1980s. Maybe a similar story could be told about the 191 universe?
Harry Turtledove himself touched on this theme in his "Cold War Hot" series, in "Bombs Away" I think.
In the guise of a conversation between two characters about AH books, he basically says there's no real point to writing a "Nazis Win" book, because, well, if you have enough grasp of history you already know how it ends.
 
But what sort of a story could be told about a world in which Jake Featherston has finally killed off all of the people he deems to be inferior? It seems that would be very little potential intrigue in such a story, because what would the conflict be? I remember reading an alternate history novel a few years ago in which a German officials finds proof that the Nazi government killed off millions of people in death camps, and after that he was hunted down and killed by members of the SS. I can't remember the title, but I think it came out back in the 1980s. Maybe a similar story could be told about the 191 universe?
That sounds like the book/film "Fatherland."
 
Great points and this is exactly what Im talking about combating-something that could be so insidious that it could get adopted into the "common knowledge" of well everybody knows that. Hopefully there would be lots of scholarship like in OTL to combat this horrible falsehood like the book Featherston's Willing Executioners that examines how the Freedomites were able to find thousands of willing participants in the Destruction including a large number from the formerly Mexican Confederate states who were actually considered lower beings in Freedomite racial ideology themselves but apparently not worthy of genocide....

Depending on your personal dispositions, the idea of a "Clean Confederate Army" is something that gets picked up as a legitimate historical argument or is mostly condemned by U.S. historians.

It would be interesting to see how foreign historians (German, Japanese, Austrian, French, English, Russian, etc), mostly free of American cultural sensibilities, agree or disagree with the idea that there were two Confederacies: One Freedomite and one that was wasn't, even if the latter was still a racist society.

EDIT Also such people who spout this bring up this guy frequently - https://turtledove.fandom.com/wiki/Boris_Lavochkin

I tend to imagine him as someone who was popular after the war to the American people, but was never fully brought up with charges by the military when he was alive.

There might be a statue of him somewhere in the USA, but eventually taken down or constantly vandalized once his actions during the SGW become common knowledge nearly half a century or so later.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
But what sort of a story could be told about a world in which Jake Featherston has finally killed off all of the people he deems to be inferior? It seems that would be very little potential intrigue in such a story, because what would the conflict be? I remember reading an alternate history novel a few years ago in which a German officials finds proof that the Nazi government killed off millions of people in death camps, and after that he was hunted down and killed by members of the SS. I can't remember the title, but I think it came out back in the 1980s. Maybe a similar story could be told about the 191 universe?

That is essentially the plot of Fatherland which was actually panned by some people who dont get AH for Harris having the big shocker as the Nazis having completed the Holocaust. There was this smug kind of no shit from them but that point seems hollow at best in a world with Holocaust deniers and even more Holocaust downplayers and equivocators

Depending on your personal dispositions, the idea of a "Clean Confederate Army" is something that gets picked up as a legitimate historical argument or is mostly condemned by U.S. historians.

It would be interesting to see how foreign historians (German, Japanese, Austrian, French, English, Russian, etc), mostly free of American cultural sensibilities, agree or disagree with the idea that there were two Confederacies: One Freedomite and one that was wasn't, even if the latter was still a racist society.



I tend to imagine him as someone who was popular after the war to the American people, but was never fully brought up with charges by the military when he was alive.

There might be a statue of him somewhere in the USA, but eventually taken down or constantly vandalized once his actions during the SGW become common knowledge nearly half a century or so later.
One suspects that the Germans and Austrians would see it from the US perspective while the British,French, Russians and Japanese would probably see things more from the Confederate side-they couldnt have been all bad since they were our allies right ?

Truth be told ole Boris doesnt hold a candle to the average guard at Camp Determination which it comes to basic depravity but there would be a campaign to make what he did equivalent to the Freedomites. Similar to the OTL idea that the Allied bombing of German cities was as bad as what Germany did to England and other countries-a bit of a moral blindspot...
 
On a another subject, I wonder what ITTL's version of the Wehraboo phenomenon would be like?

And another thing, I could Destruction-Denial also being a thing ITTL, much like Holocaust Denial is in OTL.
 
On a another subject, I wonder what ITTL's version of the Wehraboo phenomenon would be like?

For me at least, I never got the impression that the Confederate Army would obtain that kind of future meme status.

Maybe the Deutsches Heer is actually viewed with high praise and admiration from military historians and average people in a non-ironic sense.

And another thing, I could Destruction-Denial also being a thing ITTL, much like Holocaust Denial is in OTL.

Hmm, I thought about it and I'd like to think that it's never an actual idea among people, besides the craziest of the craziest.

My reasoning is that the Black population in North America stands out way too much for anyone to argue that they moved to some other country outside of the CSA. Africa is too far away and there wouldn't be any evidence of a bunch of boats filled with Black Confederates being repatriated to the continent. No one is going to argue that they just disappeared into thin air, either.

The only exception I can think of are that someone could say that they all moved to Brazil and became Afro-Brazilians.

Imperial Brazil would be able to disprove the claim due to their demographic records.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
And another thing, I could Destruction-Denial also being a thing ITTL, much like Holocaust Denial is in OTL.


Hmm, I thought about it and I'd like to think that it's never an actual idea among people, besides the craziest of the craziest.

My reasoning is that the Black population in North America stands out way too much for anyone to argue that they moved to some other country outside of the CSA. Africa is too far away and there wouldn't be any evidence of a bunch of boats filled with Black Confederates being repatriated to the continent. No one is going to argue that they just disappeared into thin air, either.

The only exception I can think of are that someone could say that they all moved to Brazil and became Afro-Brazilians.

Imperial Brazil would be able to disprove the claim due to their demographic records.

I hate to say it but what would be much more likely to see ittl rather than Destruction Denial is Destruction Justification. It would take many forms from blacks had proven themselves to be enemies of the CSA during the Red Rebellion and had it coming to them to as we saw in the novels the whole odious they were only n******s excuse. The true kooks would argue mass migration to Brazil but the typical response from many Confederate whites would be they deserved it.....


Wonder show's like Black-ish and The Boondocks that center around modern African Americans would be like.
I think that to a certain extent there would be a origin component to it-are we talking about blacks from the CSA or blacks who were raised in the USA. ? There is a good chance that blacks from the USA by the 2020's are seen as they were in The Two Georges- a fastidious "model minority" who have taken the chance for equality they were given after the Second Great War and run with it as far as it would take them. Someone like Colin Powell, Barack Obama or Kamala Harris could go very far in ttl USA. if only because of understandable US guilt for not doing more to stop the Destruction. Blacks from the CSA would be depicted as both more 'traditional" but also more "militant" than anything we see in OTL but this will be reckoned to be a good thing because after all a black rebel killed Featherston. Strong black people with guns would not be seen as something to fear in the US but to admire and emulate....

EDIT Also interracial unions would be alot more common iitl if only because of the demographic imbalance caused by the Destruction...
 
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Depending on what the post war world looks like "weeabo" might be TTLs version of "Tankie" and an obsession with German history might be something aling the lines of "anglophile." Although it probably wouldnt be called "wheraboo." Prussophile maybe?
 
Depending on what the post war world looks like "weeabo" might be TTLs version of "Tankie" and an obsession with German history might be something aling the lines of "anglophile." Although it probably wouldnt be called "wheraboo." Prussophile maybe?
We already have the term "Kaiserboo" in OTL.
 
I'm kind of curious as to how media develops in Japan ITTL. Probably alot more censorship by the state, but part of me is also curious what a mix of modern day anime and Japanese ultranationalism would look like.
 
I'm kind of curious as to how media develops in Japan ITTL. Probably alot more censorship by the state, but part of me is also curious what a mix of modern day anime and Japanese ultranationalism would look like.
Look up "Deep Blue Fleet" and you'll have some idea.
 
And another thing, I could Destruction-Denial also being a thing ITTL, much like Holocaust Denial is in OTL.

Jonathon Moss pretty much states as much near the end of In At the Death when he is talking with Pinkard's prosecutor

"The bartender brought them their fresh drinks and took away the empty glasses. Goodman stared down into his whiskey as if hoping for answers there, not just surcease. He shook his head. “I don’t know what you can do. A lot of them are going to get off, and they’ll brag about what they did till they’re old and gray.” “Except when Yankees are around,” Moss said. “Then they’ll swear up and down that they didn’t know what was going on. Some prick will probably write a book that shows how they didn’t really massacre their Negroes after all.” “Oh, yeah? Then where’d the smokes go?” Goodman asked. “I mean, they were there before the war, and then they weren’t. So what happened?” “Well, we killed a bunch of ’em when we bombed Confederate cities.” Moss was a well-trained attorney; he could spin out an argument whether he believed in it or not. “Some died in the rebellion. Some went up to the USA. Some died of hunger and disease—there was a war on, you know. But a massacre? Nah. Never happened.” Barry Goodman’s mouth twisted. “That’s disgusting. That’d gag a maggot, damned if it wouldn’t.” “Bet your ass,” Moss said. “You think it won’t happen, though? Give it twenty years—thirty at the outside.” “Disgusting,” Goodman repeated
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
Jonathon Moss pretty much states as much near the end of In At the Death when he is talking with Pinkard's prosecutor
That scene also makes the contempt that many Americans had for white Confederates very apparent. To me that fact would mean that many if not most would oppose reincorporating them into the US as fellow Americans. Imagine all the stereotypes about Southerners OTL plus the actual fact that most of them were either complicit or direct participants with mass murder- Canadians,Mormons even Mexicans would be viewed as potential Americans ahead of white Confederates....
 
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