Pop-culture in TL-191

[Alterwright]

My idea is bascailly taken an note from Alterwright's Napoleon III post which mentions Confederates in the Freach Foreign Legion fighting in the Freaco-Prussian War, and later putting down the the Paris Commune. I can see an genre in the Southland of 'Brave Southern Boys and Gentleman oversea adventures'. The same would go to Confederate Cuba and Confederate Mexican States.

I can see it taking it root among other things in the 1870s, taking off in the 1880s following the Second Mexican-American War. (Confederate Era of Good Feelings 1882-1914, or something like that.)

Yes to both, novels, and pulp stories of the 'dashing Reb/Man from Dixieland traveling the world'. Or 'Southern Gothic in European Castles, or something like that.

@Historyman 14

Okay! Let me talk about this in greater detail, because I didn't give it much thought the first time around, nor did I make my thoughts very clear.

I am both surprised and thrilled at the idea of literature and media within TL-191 being based off this idea actually --- the idea of Confederates fighting abroad. When making the Napoleon III reputation post, the idea that some Confederates would find themselves abroad occurred to me when reading stories and histories about the French Foreign Legion and other foreign mercenaries that fought in China during the Taiping Rebellion. I never thought a genre of adventure fiction could be pulled from it, but I really like the idea!

This sub-genre of "Confederate Warriors Abroad" may not only extend to just the Foreign Legion, but to other regions of the world, such as China, Japan, and other places foreign advisors or fighters would be needed. I used the Foreign Legion as the most likely avenue for ex-CS soldiers to travel abroad since I believed that it would provide an interesting avenue for Confederate individuals to spread their likeness across the world post-independence, giving the average Frenchmen or Englishmen or German a feel for what a Confederate soldier or individual is like.

If this was to be made into a genre of adventure literature, then I think it would be a very interesting and enjoyable sub-genre, especially in the Confederacy's "Era of Good Feelings" from 1882-1914 as part of published books. This sub-genre would be very popular to many Confederates at this time as I think it would be a time where Confederates really trying to hammer home the fact they were a country unique from the US --- and so this genre would be used to show the prowess and pluck of the average Confederate fighting man. After the Great War I can see its popularity being in decline, but still enjoyed by readers in the Confederacy through the south's own brand of illustrated pulp-magazine stories and adventure comics, with themes of adventure, glory, revenge, redemption, and most especially honor.

In a sense, for example, we would get something like the story of "Beau Geste" by P.C. Wren if it has to do with the French Foreign Legion. I say "like Beau Geste", but in fact it would be an entirely unique story, with different twists and turns and reasons for the protagonist to join the French Foreign Legion.

^^^ --- A "Confederate 'Beau Geste'" - instead of being written by an Englishman and a former British Army officer, perhaps a story like this within the Confederate action/adventure sub-genre can be written. The author would be a Confederate, possibly a veteran of the Great War or Second Mexican War, and have Confederate characters take part in an entirely different story, not necessary set in the deserts of Algeria, but perhaps in France fighting the Germans or in Indochina in the late 1880s as France invaded what it now Vietnam.

 

[Alterwright]

All of these are strong plausible outcomes of Confederate culture having an influence on the rest of the world. In fact, they could probably be good examples of pop culture that is unique to TL-191 and not have an easily discernible parallelism in real-life.

It would be nice if someone could create a story out of these ideas.

@Allochronian @Historyman 14 @Tiro

I agree. In fact we can go further. Certain books and literature in this timeline would be either butter-flied away or drastically changed, allowing for the creation of alternate version of the stories we are familiar with in our timeline or, most intriguingly, stories in literature that are entirely unique to this timeline. This includes certain novels that were written by foreigners outside of North America. What I'm saying is that we would get entirely new stories from authors in Victorian or Edwardian Britain for example, with either slightly different or entirely unique stories as a butterfly effect.

Think about it too. I'll narrow down the time period of Victorian Era as an example --- This would mean that the Second Mexican War (1881-1882) occurs during the Victorian Era. For a bit of historical context, the Zulu War (1879), the Mahdist War (1881-1899), and the Second Anglo-Afghan War (1878-1880) were conflicts in which the British Empire was engaged in during this time, either occurring just before, just after, or were concurrently happening along side this conflict. Seeing as how those wars played a part in shaping the empire, it seems reasonable to me that, in a cultural and social context, that British authors would write something about the Second Mexican War - especially at least a novel or a memoir or two. And given the scale of the war itself, its hard not to forget.

I actually have two stories in mind that could be drastically changed up because of the differences in this timeline, possibly becoming entirely new stories --- The Battle of Dorking written by George Chesney in 1871 and The Four Feathers written by A.E.W. Mason in 1902 --- this includes its many movie adaptions that would be changed. I want to address those two stories in later posts, so keep an eye out for them if I ever get to them!

For "The Four Feathers" --- My hunch is this - instead of the story taking place in Sudan during the Mahdist War, it can potentially take place in Eastern Montana, during the Second Mexican War around the time of the Battle of Teton River in 1881, either before it or after it occurred. While I can't give you the exact details of a story, I can provide potential visual references with notes. It would be an adventure story of course, in an entirely different setting with new characters and challenges --- the deserts of the Sudan, after all, are much different than the Great Plains of North America and the enemies are very different as well. The perspective would be from the British side this time of course, so we would get a very different look at the war through the mind of a British writer.

^^^ --- Alternate "Four Feathers" scene --- British lancers charge forward past a square of British infantry as they attack US Cavalry and infantry. The scene is of a battle in Eastern Montana in 1881.

^^^ --- Alternate "Four Feathers" --- US Cavalry in Eastern Montana charge a British square, sabers forward, led by Custer. US soldiers would come face to face with the British for the first time in generations. And like the Zulus before them and the Mahdists after them, they would know the devastating effect of British volleys.

^^^ --- Alternate "Four Feathers" --- British position is overwhelmed by US forces in Eastern Montana, 1881.

^^^ --- Alternate "Four Feathers" --- US cavalry scouting out a position in Eastern Montana in 1881, keeping watch over British movements in the territory.

 

[Historyman 14]

@Alterwright, these are amazing!

I will say I think I made the CSA 'Era of Good Feelings' an little longer, but given the beating it gave the North, and it suffer few defeats, it would last an long time, as well as in Canada.

For Confederate 'Beau Geste'", you mention Vietnam and I think of the Tonkin Campaign/Sino-French War, which comes off right the heels of the Second Mexican War. (Also Mandingo Wars, so Confederates fighting in Africa...) Your also right about Southerns fighting elsewhere.

The Four Feathers, I also found interesting it being set Montana. (Remember, the British got decimated by Custer when they try to attack head on and for the rest of the war in Montana was the British cavalry and US Fifth Cavalry patrolled the border.)

The Boxer Rebellion I think would be the 'goldmine' of Confederate Warriors Abroad. Post Great War One would be the chaotic state of China.

South America for one.

Something else would be the Confederate own Indian Wars. (The Comanche Wars, and later the Apaches. Remember they killed Jeb Stuart, and Geronimo lean his own rebellion against the Confederacy over the Confederate's Hispanic population. He hated Mexicans before he even fought Americans.)

 

[Alterwright]

The Four Feathers, I also found interesting it being set Montana. (Remember, the British got decimated by Custer when they try to attack head on and for the rest of the war in Montana was the British cavalry and US Fifth Cavalry patrolled the border.)

It wouldn't be that far-fetched of an idea I think. It could take on a different title and have a different plot. Theme of courages and cowardice can still be a main focus in the story, but told in a different way.

Side-note - Historically, this is a pretty interesting time for Charles Gordon to be here in North America. By this point in his career, he had already served in China and had already been Governor-General of Sudan. He retired in 1880 where he was offered numerous positions, but declined many of them. He was not a desk-man it seems and he preferred action. By 1881 he would have either been in England with family and friends, or in Mauritius overseeing construction of forts, of which he was described as "dying of boredom". A war in North America could have been a chance at action despite the thought of him allying with the Confederates - he was a staunch abolitionist and could have gone to Canada for personal reasons if it meant that the South would abolish slavery in exchange for victory.

 

[Alterwright]

The Boxer Rebellion I think would be the 'goldmine' of Confederate Warriors Abroad. Post Great War One would be the chaotic state of China.

Oh believe me, I have a whole thing about the Boxer Rebellion I'd like to get into. Despite it all I have a dogged belief that the Confederates would in fact be sending a relief force to Peking during the rebellion, so Dixie's soldiers would be on the ground in an official capacity. Whether they would fight along side US soldiers and sailors is still up in the air for me, but I think it could also make for an interesting novel. Seemed like every great power at the time committed a force to the relief of Peking, this even included Austro-Hungarians and Italians too. And while the Confederate force would be small, Confederate civilians may be present in Peking, especially missionaries.

So, in terms of literature or media, we may get a different take on the movie "55 Days at Peking".

^^^ --- So, for example, Charlton Heston here can potentially be playing a Confederate Marine officer as opposed to a US marine officer along side his British counterpart.

 

[Tiro]

I suspect that, by this point in Timeline-191, the American film industry would do their best to ignore the Confederate States - or at least marginalise their contribution to World History - as a sort of Damnatio Memoriae directed against the nation that wrought such havoc on the "Manifest Destiny" of the United States and then spawned one of the most malignant regimes imaginable.

My guess would be that the Confederate representative would be reduced to a walk-on and sidelined in favour of the byplay between the US & the UK (or at least their local representatives); the United States might make peace with the British, having walloped them thoroughly and ensured the dismemberment of their Empire, but the Reunited States are unlikely to revive the memory of the Confederate States where they can possibly avoid doing so.

 

[Tiro]

Alternate "Four Feathers"

Really like this idea - I wonder who the officer obliged to clean up after "Chinese" Gordon found his command wrecked by machine gun fire was?

 

[pattontank12]

I picture "Southern Scoundrel" would be a popular trope in Union and later German media. Often characterizing Confederate characters as ruthless opportunists and backstabbers hiding behind a thin veneer of classic southern charm and manners. Ranging everywhere from second rate con artists to sociopathic war criminals, often hailing from Charleston or New Orleans.

 

[rob2001]

I wonder what a TL-191 version of the tv show The Waltons would like?

 

[Historyman 14]

I suspect that, by this point in Timeline-191, the American film industry would do their best to ignore the Confederate States - or at least marginalise their contribution to World History - as a sort of Damnatio Memoriae directed against the nation that wrought such havoc on the "Manifest Destiny" of the United States and then spawned one of the most malignant regimes imaginable.

My guess would be that the Confederate representative would be reduced to a walk-on and sidelined in favour of the byplay between the US & the UK (or at least their local representatives); the United States might make peace with the British, having walloped them thoroughly and ensured the dismemberment of their Empire, but the Reunited States are unlikely to revive the memory of the Confederate States where they can possibly avoid doing so.

Me and @Joshua Ben Ari talked a little about this, and we took it an step further after the Second Great War.

I could see the US going even further. Remake Southern films, novels, etc, and destroy the original Confederate works. So that the new generations of Southron children grow up with only the US versions as the ones they know. Laughing at their parents for thinking that there was a Southern version of a movie/book/etc.

I could see some ex-Confederates fleeing for Brazil, South Africa, Rhodesia, or even Australia and keeping their original works safe from damnyankee censors. But with so few surviving, most of the pre-End Confederate works are gone and destroyed while the US recreates them to be proper "true American" works.

 

[Historyman 14]

I picture "Southern Scoundrel" would be a popular trope in Union and later German media. Often characterizing Confederate characters as ruthless opportunists and backstabbers hiding behind a thin veneer of classic southern charm and manners. Ranging everywhere from second rate con artists to sociopathic war criminals, often hailing from Charleston or New Orleans.

You forgot Richmond, the very heart of the Confederacy.

 

[Historyman 14]

@Alterwright, @Joshua Ben Ari, @Tiro.

I gave it some thought and I thought about another sub-genre of Confederate pop culture: Caribbean literature. It been mention outside of Haiti, the Caribbean is an Entente/Confederate/Mexican Lake up till after the First Great War, and so I have the idea of an stuff written and made about Cuba, the many islands there, and so on. (Which adds to the uniqueness of TL-191 Cuba. Maybe even an few Black Confederate Authors?) So an lot of Pirate Movies, an lot of mysterious island novels, Lost Civilizations in Central America, and that kind of thing.

Same for Sonora and Chihuahua and they unique place within the CSA and what they have to offer cultural of the Hispanic and Native cultures, wildlife and geography wonders.

 

[Historyman 14]

Side-note - Historically, this is a pretty interesting time for Charles Gordon to be here in North America. By this point in his career, he had already served in China and had already been Governor-General of Sudan. He retired in 1880 where he was offered numerous positions, but declined many of them. He was not a desk-man it seems and he preferred action. By 1881 he would have either been in England with family and friends, or in Mauritius overseeing construction of forts, of which he was described as "dying of boredom". A war in North America could have been a chance at action despite the thought of him allying with the Confederates - he was a staunch abolitionist and could have gone to Canada for personal reasons if it meant that the South would abolish slavery in exchange for victory.

I think the issue of the British Abolitionism and they attacks and suppression of slave trading would be very interesting to explore, and honesty sad. I mention William Wilberforce before, and the fact the Second Mexican War pushed into the Confederacy's camp even when before they was embarrassed with its ties to the Confederate States.

 

[pattontank12]

You forgot Richmond, the very heart of the Confederacy.

And of course when they're not from the major cities of the Confederacy they're usually from poor and impoverished rural regions. Often being portrayed hiding a dark cunning and intelligence under the guise of a humble countryman, being the main reason they got of the squalor of their birth in the first place.

@Alterwright, @Joshua Ben Ari, @Tiro.

I gave it some thought and I thought about another sub-genre of Confederate pop culture: Caribbean literature. It been mention outside of Haiti, the Caribbean is an Entente/Confederate/Mexican Lake up till after the First Great War, and so I have the idea of an stuff written and made about Cuba, the many islands there, and so on. (Which adds to the uniqueness of TL-191 Cuba. Maybe even an few Black Confederate Authors?) So an lot of Pirate Movies, an lot of mysterious island novels, Lost Civilizations in Central America, and that kind of thing.

Same for Sonora and Chihuahua and they unique place within the CSA and what they have to offer cultural of the Hispanic and Native cultures, wildlife and geography wonders.

(I gotta wonder if the Union and Confederates still used privateers to raid each other's shipping routs during the Second Mexican and First Great Wars.)

While up North in the Union Westerns would remain relatively popular with it having a resurgence following the First Great War and the vast new territories now opened up to American settlers.

 

[Pelranius]

Going back to the Indiana Jones matter, perhaps some of the villains could be Russians looking for Baba Yaga, Koschei, or the Sampo (despite the last being a Finnish thing)?

 

[Allochronian]

Going back to the Indiana Jones matter, perhaps some of the villains could be Russians looking for Baba Yaga, Koschei, or the Sampo (despite the last being a Finnish thing)?

If we are going to involve Russians, I'd be interesting to see them interact with British and Americans in Russian America.

 

[Historyman 14]

Going back to the Indiana Jones matter, perhaps some of the villains could be Russians looking for Baba Yaga, Koschei, or the Sampo (despite the last being a Finnish thing)?

If we are going to involve Russians, I'd be interesting to see them interact with British and Americans in Russian America.

Alaska would be an prime place to have such an film, or part of one.

 

[oshron]

i could see these hypothetical Russian antagonists featuring in an equivalent film to Temple of Doom where, like the Thuggee, they're considered poor substitutes to the Confederates and are searching for the Sampo similarly to the Shiva Stones in Finland at the behest of Koschei, who fills in for Mola Ram (and maybe the deathless aspect of the character could be implemented in a way like Ra's al Ghul's immortality in Batman Begins where it's not really confirmed or denied if Koschei is actually immortal). the opening could also figure into the altered geopolitics where Indy is in Britain and has to make a deal with some Silvershirts (those were the British *fascists in TL-191, right?) parallel to the opening at Club Obi-Wan with Lao Che and then escape flight, intended to go to US-allied Germany, instead goes to Scandinavia and Indy, *Willie, and *Short Round end up in Finland that way. bonus points if there's a meta-cameo by Simo Hayha as the leader of the rescue party at the very end, paralleling Blumburtt's cavalry moment at the end of the OTL movie

 

[Historyman 14]

I myself is surprise no one had posting any of these...

Confederacy...

Spoiler

And Union...

Spoiler

 

[Alterwright]

I myself is surprise no one had posting any of these...

Confederacy...
And Union...

Oof! These are good! Don't forget Tennessee Ernie Ford's "Northern Version" of Dixie!