Pop-culture in TL-191

[Allochronian]

On a another subject, I wonder what ITTL's version of the Wehraboo phenomenon would be like?

For me at least, I never got the impression that the Confederate Army would obtain that kind of future meme status.

Maybe the Deutsches Heer is actually viewed with high praise and admiration from military historians and average people in a non-ironic sense.

And another thing, I could Destruction-Denial also being a thing ITTL, much like Holocaust Denial is in OTL.

Hmm, I thought about it and I'd like to think that it's never an actual idea among people, besides the craziest of the craziest.

My reasoning is that the Black population in North America stands out way too much for anyone to argue that they moved to some other country outside of the CSA. Africa is too far away and there wouldn't be any evidence of a bunch of boats filled with Black Confederates being repatriated to the continent. No one is going to argue that they just disappeared into thin air, either.

The only exception I can think of are that someone could say that they all moved to Brazil and became Afro-Brazilians.

Imperial Brazil would be able to disprove the claim due to their demographic records.

 

[MaxGerke01]

And another thing, I could Destruction-Denial also being a thing ITTL, much like Holocaust Denial is in OTL.

Hmm, I thought about it and I'd like to think that it's never an actual idea among people, besides the craziest of the craziest.

My reasoning is that the Black population in North America stands out way too much for anyone to argue that they moved to some other country outside of the CSA. Africa is too far away and there wouldn't be any evidence of a bunch of boats filled with Black Confederates being repatriated to the continent. No one is going to argue that they just disappeared into thin air, either.

The only exception I can think of are that someone could say that they all moved to Brazil and became Afro-Brazilians.

Imperial Brazil would be able to disprove the claim due to their demographic records.

I hate to say it but what would be much more likely to see ittl rather than Destruction Denial is Destruction Justification. It would take many forms from blacks had proven themselves to be enemies of the CSA during the Red Rebellion and had it coming to them to as we saw in the novels the whole odious they were only n******s excuse. The true kooks would argue mass migration to Brazil but the typical response from many Confederate whites would be they deserved it.....

Wonder show's like Black-ish and The Boondocks that center around modern African Americans would be like.

I think that to a certain extent there would be a origin component to it-are we talking about blacks from the CSA or blacks who were raised in the USA. ? There is a good chance that blacks from the USA by the 2020's are seen as they were in The Two Georges- a fastidious "model minority" who have taken the chance for equality they were given after the Second Great War and run with it as far as it would take them. Someone like Colin Powell, Barack Obama or Kamala Harris could go very far in ttl USA. if only because of understandable US guilt for not doing more to stop the Destruction. Blacks from the CSA would be depicted as both more 'traditional" but also more "militant" than anything we see in OTL but this will be reckoned to be a good thing because after all a black rebel killed Featherston. Strong black people with guns would not be seen as something to fear in the US but to admire and emulate....

EDIT Also interracial unions would be alot more common iitl if only because of the demographic imbalance caused by the Destruction...

 

[Mister Abbadon]

Depending on what the post war world looks like "weeabo" might be TTLs version of "Tankie" and an obsession with German history might be something aling the lines of "anglophile." Although it probably wouldnt be called "wheraboo." Prussophile maybe?

 

[Marklin]

Depending on what the post war world looks like "weeabo" might be TTLs version of "Tankie" and an obsession with German history might be something aling the lines of "anglophile." Although it probably wouldnt be called "wheraboo." Prussophile maybe?

We already have the term "Kaiserboo" in OTL.

 

[Marklin]

I'm kind of curious as to how media develops in Japan ITTL. Probably alot more censorship by the state, but part of me is also curious what a mix of modern day anime and Japanese ultranationalism would look like.

 

[Soundwave3591]

I'm kind of curious as to how media develops in Japan ITTL. Probably alot more censorship by the state, but part of me is also curious what a mix of modern day anime and Japanese ultranationalism would look like.

Look up "Deep Blue Fleet" and you'll have some idea.

 

[Nathan Bernacki]

And another thing, I could Destruction-Denial also being a thing ITTL, much like Holocaust Denial is in OTL.

Jonathon Moss pretty much states as much near the end of In At the Death when he is talking with Pinkard's prosecutor

"The bartender brought them their fresh drinks and took away the empty glasses. Goodman stared down into his whiskey as if hoping for answers there, not just surcease. He shook his head. “I don’t know what you can do. A lot of them are going to get off, and they’ll brag about what they did till they’re old and gray.” “Except when Yankees are around,” Moss said. “Then they’ll swear up and down that they didn’t know what was going on. Some prick will probably write a book that shows how they didn’t really massacre their Negroes after all.” “Oh, yeah? Then where’d the smokes go?” Goodman asked. “I mean, they were there before the war, and then they weren’t. So what happened?” “Well, we killed a bunch of ’em when we bombed Confederate cities.” Moss was a well-trained attorney; he could spin out an argument whether he believed in it or not. “Some died in the rebellion. Some went up to the USA. Some died of hunger and disease—there was a war on, you know. But a massacre? Nah. Never happened.” Barry Goodman’s mouth twisted. “That’s disgusting. That’d gag a maggot, damned if it wouldn’t.” “Bet your ass,” Moss said. “You think it won’t happen, though? Give it twenty years—thirty at the outside.” “Disgusting,” Goodman repeated

 

[MaxGerke01]

Jonathon Moss pretty much states as much near the end of In At the Death when he is talking with Pinkard's prosecutor

That scene also makes the contempt that many Americans had for white Confederates very apparent. To me that fact would mean that many if not most would oppose reincorporating them into the US as fellow Americans. Imagine all the stereotypes about Southerners OTL plus the actual fact that most of them were either complicit or direct participants with mass murder- Canadians,Mormons even Mexicans would be viewed as potential Americans ahead of white Confederates....

 

[Nathan Bernacki]

That scene also makes the contempt that many Americans had for white Confederates very apparent. To me that fact would mean that many if not most would oppose reincorporating them into the US as fellow Americans. Imagine all the stereotypes about Southerners OTL plus the actual fact that most of them were either complicit or direct participants with mass murder- Canadians,Mormons even Mexicans would be viewed as potential Americans ahead of white Confederates....

Well, I think it would be a generational thing. The US would probably institute policies which would force a 'Yankee' educational system on the children of Confederate citizens, but the Confederacy was independent for 70 years. That kind of ingrained nationalism would take decades to break down, to say nothing about Saul Goldman's wartime propaganda.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Well, I think it would be a generational thing. The US would probably institute policies which would force a 'Yankee' educational system on the children of Confederate citizens, but the Confederacy was independent for 70 years. That kind of ingrained nationalism would take decades to break down, to say nothing about Saul Goldman's wartime propaganda.

Right. I saw it coming of course but I was really disappointed by the way the books ended with the whole reintergration asap policy being announced by Dewey and Truman. Its not only unrealistic but would be deeply unpopular .Americans would say wait a minute what exactly were we just fighting for? In 1948 I would think that could play a role with Dewey and Truman being defeated by the Socialists-hows that for an alternate headline

 

[Soundwave3591]

Right. I saw it coming of course but I was really disappointed by the way the books ended with the whole reintergration asap policy being announced by Dewey and Truman. Its not only unrealistic but would be deeply unpopular .Americans would say wait a minute what exactly were we just fighting for? In 1948 I would think that could play a role with Dewey and Truman being defeated by the Socialists-hows that for an alternate headline

Well, let's look at reality, how many ex-Nazis ended up in positions of authority in the post-war World?

FFS one such man, Kurt Waldheim, who served as an Army Intel officer in Greece and Yugoslavia, where dozes of atrocities were carried out by the Nazis, was Secretary General of the UN!

Adolf Heusinger, Former Chief of the General Staff of the Wehrmacht and head of the Cartography office, who was actually in several photos with Hitler? Chairman of the NATO military committee from 1961-64!

Werner von Braun, SS member whose rockets were assembled by Slave labor and rained devastation on London? Head of NASA, credited with getting humanity to the moon!

how quickly did the West sweep Nazi crimes under the rug or pin them solely on the inner circles of the SS and the regime in order to justify German rearmament? how many imprisoned Nazis were released before their prison sentences were filled?

 

[Soundwave3591]

Depending on what the post war world looks like "weeabo" might be TTLs version of "Tankie" and an obsession with German history might be something aling the lines of "anglophile." Although it probably wouldnt be called "wheraboo." Prussophile maybe?

Well, I could see something along the lines of the "Death trap" myth about US barrels, along the lines of Belton Cooper's damning book "Death Traps" which is one of the primary sources of the Sherman Tank's unfounded reputation for being a piece of junk, emerging about US barrels due to their inferiority to Confederate machines in the early part of the war.
Subsequently, this could expand to apply to ALL US barrels, even the later war models, and give rise to something similar to the almost cult-like fanboying over German tanks of our timeline, only this time it's over Confederate and British Machines.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Well, let's look at reality, how many ex-Nazis ended up in positions of authority in the post-war World?

FFS one such man, Kurt Waldheim, who served as an Army Intel officer in Greece and Yugoslavia, where dozes of atrocities were carried out by the Nazis, was Secretary General of the UN!

Adolf Heusinger, Former Chief of the General Staff of the Wehrmacht and head of the Cartography office, who was actually in several photos with Hitler? Chairman of the NATO military committee from 1961-64!

Werner von Braun, SS member whose rockets were assembled by Slave labor and rained devastation on London? Head of NASA, credited with getting humanity to the moon!

how quickly did the West sweep Nazi crimes under the rug or pin them solely on the inner circles of the SS and the regime in order to justify German rearmament? how many imprisoned Nazis were released before their prison sentences were filled?

Well my answer is far too many for my taste. But that said I think there is a difference with Tl-191 and thats the lack of an equivalent of the Soviet menace that it was felt made it necessary to strengthen West Germany even if former Nazi bodies were involved. There is no outside menace threatening the US- save Japan but thas not close to the same level. But even if Japan and Germany and the former Entente were all coming after the US with is superbombs and sunbombs it still doesnt have to play nice with Dixie and former Freedomites to protect itself. It doesnt and I would hope wouldnt....

 

[Soundwave3591]

Well my answer is far too many for my taste. But that said I think there is a difference with Tl-191 and thats the lack of an equivalent of the Soviet menace that it was felt made it necessary to strengthen West Germany even if former Nazi bodies were involved. There is no outside menace threatening the US- save Japan but thas not close to the same level. But even if Japan and Germany and the former Entente were all coming after the US with is superbombs and sunbombs it still doesnt have to play nice with Dixie and former Freedomites to protect itself. It doesnt and I would hope wouldnt....

Well, look at things logistically: the US now has to police All of the former CSA, including the states of Sonora, Chihuahua and Cuba, as well as ALL of Canada, something that IRL the USA never had to put up with. In the space of 4 years the US has more than doubled the space it is committed to defending and policing.
Even at maximum military standing, that's a LOT of troops to feed, arm, equip and house, and they're spread across literally half the collective landmass of the Western Hemisphere, in the middle of territory that isn't exactly happy for them to be there.
Quebec and Texas help somewhat, but they aren't permanent fixes, and there is a likelihood that plenty of ex-CSA personnel fled into Mexico and to the CSA's South American Allies.
The US needs to secure its position simply in order to MAINTAIN what it has.

 

[Marklin]

Getting on the topic of Pop-Culture in TL 191, would German Expressionism still be a thing? How would German Cinema and literature be different in this world?

 

[Bbone91]

Getting on the topic of Pop-Culture in TL 191, would German Expressionism still be a thing? How would German Cinema and literature be different in this world?

Wasn’t German Expressionism a reaction to Germanys loss in World War One though?

 

[Marklin]

Wasn’t German Expressionism a reaction to Germanys loss in World War One though?

From what i've heard, it had it's roots before WW1, but it's most well known for it's role in post-war Germany. On the topic of 1920s films, I wonder how the film industry would evolve in Russia without the Soviets.

 

[Marklin]

Another thing, One of the first ever blockbusters, Birth of the Nation from 1915 (One which has aged horribly) focuses heavily on Reconstruction. So this really makes me wonder what the first Blockbuster in TL 191 would be about. Seeing that the Union and Confederacy would be at war in 1915, I can see it being a Confederate Propaganda Film that focuses on the South's glorious victories in both the Mexican War and War of Secession. It could even still maintain it's name "Birth of a Nation."

 

[MaxGerke01]

Well, look at things logistically: the US now has to police All of the former CSA, including the states of Sonora, Chihuahua and Cuba, as well as ALL of Canada, something that IRL the USA never had to put up with. In the space of 4 years the US has more than doubled the space it is committed to defending and policing.
Even at maximum military standing, that's a LOT of troops to feed, arm, equip and house, and they're spread across literally half the collective landmass of the Western Hemisphere, in the middle of territory that isn't exactly happy for them to be there.
Quebec and Texas help somewhat, but they aren't permanent fixes, and there is a likelihood that plenty of ex-CSA personnel fled into Mexico and to the CSA's South American Allies.
The US needs to secure its position simply in order to MAINTAIN what it has.

Well there is a really good chance that like with Quebec -Sonora and Chihuahua and Cuba could end up being independent US client states not to mention the state of Houston being resurrected and parts of the CSA proper being either re-incorporated into the US or made independent states. After 2 generations of US control holding down Canada would be getting much less difficult partially because while there was bitterness and hatred on the part of the Canadians towards their American overlords it was always much less ingrained than between Americans and Confederates. Plus Quebec would do a fair amount of the heavy lifting with Canada. Also most Americans probably think there is no reason that Canadians wouldnt make good Americans.
Then there are the Mormons who might still be problematic. Many would possibly be willing to exist with US in Utah but if not the mass deportation to the Sandwich Islands option is a possibility so problem solved there. Plus the US southern borders are ok not counting of course the thousands of Mexican and Latin American immigrants looking to go north for a better life and by all accounts would possibly receive a warmer welcome in the CSA than they would in the OTL South. So all in all the US is in very good shape and facing nothing like it did in Western Europe or worldwide like it did OTL post WW2. The US has no reason to tolerate any former Freedomites in positions of power -not in the CSA and certainly not in the international community such as it is in TL-191.

 

[Soundwave3591]

Another thing, One of the first ever blockbusters, Birth of the Nation from 1915 (One which has aged horribly) focuses heavily on Reconstruction. So this really makes me wonder what the first Blockbuster in TL 191 would be about. Seeing that the Union and Confederacy would be at war in 1915, I can see it being a Confederate Propaganda Film that focuses on the South's glorious victories in both the Mexican War and War of Secession. It could even still maintain it's name "Birth of a Nation."

D.W. Griffith can even direct it, as he was from Kentucky.

On the question of Expressionist films, maybe France fills that slot in this timeline? I could see the societal backlash from losing TWO wars against Germany leading to a degredation of "traditional values" which would in turn lead to the Actionists taking over due to the subsequent backlash from conservatives, much like the reactions of traditionalist Germans who saw such things as Art Deco, open Homosexuality, immigration and the seeming collapse of "Germanic" values during the Weimar era and supported Hitler.

The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, for example, could be about French Shell-Shock victims instead of German ones, and Lang's "Metropolis" could be translated as a French vision of a stratified future of haves and have-nots.