Pop-culture in TL-191

[Cire]

Im always interested to see the horrible Freedomite Racial Ideology carried out to its logical and extreme limits.

Personally, I think that something along those lines would be kinda ugly, repetitive, and without any redeeming value. We already know how a mass-genocide worked out in our own timeline, so why beat a dead horse? I think it would be much more interesting to see how the survivors of Freedom Party camps carry on in the years following the end of the war. Do they flee America as many survivors of the Holocaust fled Europe after WWII in our timeline? Also, if the survivors of the Freedom Party camps did flee America, would some of them carry Marxist ideologies to the Caribbean, West Africa, or perhaps even other parts of the world? What about the survivors who remain in America, would they become fanatically loyal to the US, as opposed to the Marxist who have fled North America?

I think that this would be a more interesting story to read about instead of, and then Jake Featherston finally killed the last member of a particular race.

 

[Cire]

Wonder what the episode Far Beyond the Stars from Star Trek: Deep Space 9 would be like in timeline 191 along with the rest of the series?

I wonder if the creators of the 191 version of Star Trek might tend to set their story in some sort of a space republic, instead of a federation?

 

[MaxGerke01]

Personally, I think that something along those lines would be kinda ugly, repetitive, and without any redeeming value. We already know how a mass-genocide worked out in our own timeline, so why beat a dead horse? I think it would be much more interesting to see how the survivors of Freedom Party camps carry on in the years following the end of the war. Do they flee America as many survivors of the Holocaust fled Europe after WWII in our timeline? Also, if the survivors of the Freedom Party camps did flee America, would some of them carry Marxist ideologies to the Caribbean, West Africa, or perhaps even other parts of the world? What about the survivors who remain in America, would they become fanatically loyal to the US, as opposed to the Marxist who have fled North America?

I think that this would be a more interesting story to read about instead of, and then Jake Featherston finally killed the last member of a particular race.

So let me be very clear about this -of course this is also my preference.What I was talking talking about there and perhaps it was badly expressed just boils down to the human tendency to want to see how bad bad could get. Of course Freedomite ideology like Nazi ideology is completely odious and thankfully both were defeated at a high cost. Of course there are some OTL and in Tl-191 who deny what they did and what Im talking about is saying not only did they do it but make no mistake this is what they would have done if they had won. No soft pedaling or pussy footing or downplaying the the cold hard very ugly truth. This is done as a warning not as some kind of advocacy and its why a 'successful" Holocaust is usually presented as being part and parcel of a Nazi victory scenario -to underlie how horrible it would have been. So again this is my ONLY intent and I want that to be clear..

 

[Sunstone77]

I wonder if the creators of the 191 version of Star Trek might tend to set their story in some sort of a space republic, instead of a federation?

Just curious as to why you’d think they’d favour Repuclic over Federation.
They likely went with a Federation in otl Trek as it played into the American idea of federal republics and because it implies something relatively large but also relatively free

 

[Soundwave3591]

So let me be very clear about this -of course this is also my preference.What I was talking talking about there and perhaps it was badly expressed just boils down to the human tendency to want to see how bad bad could get. Of course Freedomite ideology like Nazi ideology is completely odious and thankfully both were defeated at a high cost. Of course there are some OTL and in Tl-191 who deny what they did and what Im talking about is saying not only did they do it but make no mistake this is what they would have done if they had won. No soft pedaling or pussy footing or downplaying the the cold hard very ugly truth. This is done as a warning not as some kind of advocacy and its why a 'successful" Holocaust is usually presented as being part and parcel of a Nazi victory scenario -to underlie how horrible it would have been. So again this is my ONLY intent and I want that to be clear..

If I may put one concept in, I would imagine something like the "Clean Wehrmacht" Myth might emerge.
Calling itself "Innocent Johnnie" it lays the crimes of the Freedomites at the feet of Featherston and the Freedom Party Guards, rather than the whole of the Csa's military, who would be said to have fought a "clean" war. No blame, therefore, falls on the regular troops or the civilian population.

This mindset flies in the face of both accounts from Black escapee's and those of US troops during the advance into the deep south, but is held up by the post-war government to try and ease the tensions of reintegration.

 

[Marklin]

If I may put one concept in, I would imagine something like the "Clean Wehrmacht" Myth might emerge.
Calling itself "Innocent Johnnie" it lays the crimes of the Freedomites at the feet of Featherston and the Freedom Party Guards, rather than the whole of the Csa's military, who would be said to have fought a "clean" war. No blame, therefore, falls on the regular troops or the civilian population.

This mindset flies in the face of both accounts from Black escapee's and those of US troops during the advance into the deep south, but is held up by the post-war government to try and ease the tensions of reintegration.

It could probably be combined with something similar too lost cause revisionism in OTL, applying to the CS as a whole, ignoring things like Slavery being the basis for it's creation and focusing on how the North was more of an aggressor than the South was.

 

[MaxGerke01]

If I may put one concept in, I would imagine something like the "Clean Wehrmacht" Myth might emerge.
Calling itself "Innocent Johnnie" it lays the crimes of the Freedomites at the feet of Featherston and the Freedom Party Guards, rather than the whole of the Csa's military, who would be said to have fought a "clean" war. No blame, therefore, falls on the regular troops or the civilian population.

This mindset flies in the face of both accounts from Black escapee's and those of US troops during the advance into the deep south, but is held up by the post-war government to try and ease the tensions of reintegration.

It could probably be combined with something similar too lost cause revisionism in OTL, applying to the CS as a whole, ignoring things like Slavery being the basis for it's creation and focusing on how the North was more of an aggressor than the South was.

Great points and this is exactly what Im talking about combating-something that could be so insidious that it could get adopted into the "common knowledge" of well everybody knows that. Hopefully there would be lots of scholarship like in OTL to combat this horrible falsehood like the book Featherston's Willing Executioners that examines how the Freedomites were able to find thousands of willing participants in the Destruction including a large number from the formerly Mexican Confederate states who were actually considered lower beings in Freedomite racial ideology themselves but apparently not worthy of genocide....

EDIT Also such people who spout this bring up this guy frequently - https://turtledove.fandom.com/wiki/Boris_Lavochkin

 

[pattontank12]

You'd think that after four wars in the span of 80 years and millions dead the United States would be more inclined towards trying to wipe out any trace southern identity. Lots of forced relocations, children getting taken to "boarding schools" and immigrants being brought in from the north and abroad.

 

[Mister Abbadon]

You'd think that after four wars in the span of 80 years and millions dead the United States would be more inclined towards trying to wipe out any trace southern identity. Lots of forced relocations, children getting taken to "boarding schools" and immigrants being brought in from the north and abroad.

Depends on what the Occupation looks like. If they want to de-southernize and make sure this never happens again they might emphasize that the Rank and file Southern citizens are responsible for all the CSAs crimes against humanity on the grounds that Featherston was elected, so they really have no one to blame but themselves that their cities were bombed to dust and if they gave occupational authorities too much lip 20 random people were put in front of a firing squad.

 

[MaxGerke01]

You'd think that after four wars in the span of 80 years and millions dead the United States would be more inclined towards trying to wipe out any trace southern identity. Lots of forced relocations, children getting taken to "boarding schools" and immigrants being brought in from the north and abroad.

You know I see what you are saying here but this is one thing I actually dont agree with. As much as I despise the Freedomite ideology and what it stood for I dont think if I was a resident of the US ittl at this time that I would have supported reintergration of the CSA. Keeping them unarmed and peaceful as possible yes but not reintergated. The cost to do so is too bloody on both sides and given the sizeable number of people on both sides who wouldnt want it not really worth it. So hold them accountable for what they have done and make it clear that if they ever try anything like it again they get landed on hard- containing them not conquering them Basically what was done in Nazi Germany OTL with DeNazification- DeFreedomiting or whatever its called to put as many institutions and people in power who are friendly to the United States and making sure thats what the children are taught at school. I really think that reabsorbing the CSA back into the USA would ignore what they did during the Second Great War and I would say they dont deserve to get off that easy at the very least.

 

[Cire]

They likely went with a Federation in otl Trek as it played into the American idea of federal republics and because it implies something relatively large but also relatively free

Mainly because I think that the post-war US of the 191 universe would put less emphasis on "freedom" and more emphasis on the consolidation of central power. In my opinion, it seems as though the Federation in our version of Star Trek was a looser affiliation of semi independent planets, maybe like the Commonwealth of Independent States, and maybe US officials in the 191 universe would consider such an idea to be dangerous. Maybe, maybe not.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Depends on what the Occupation looks like. If they want to de-southernize and make sure this never happens again they might emphasize that the Rank and file Southern citizens are responsible for all the CSAs crimes against humanity on the grounds that Featherston was elected, so they really have no one to blame but themselves that their cities were bombed to dust and if they gave occupational authorities too much lip 20 random people were put in front of a firing squad.

But the thing is that if you turn around and make them all American citizens again as well doesnt that in a way effectively say we dont really hold you accountable for this and all is forgiven? I really feel that any Confederate who voted Freedomite should not be granted American citizenship at the minimum....

 

[Cire]

just boils down to the human tendency to want to see how bad bad could get.

But what sort of a story could be told about a world in which Jake Featherston has finally killed off all of the people he deems to be inferior? It seems that would be very little potential intrigue in such a story, because what would the conflict be? I remember reading an alternate history novel a few years ago in which a German officials finds proof that the Nazi government killed off millions of people in death camps, and after that he was hunted down and killed by members of the SS. I can't remember the title, but I think it came out back in the 1980s. Maybe a similar story could be told about the 191 universe?

 

[Soundwave3591]

But what sort of a story could be told about a world in which Jake Featherston has finally killed off all of the people he deems to be inferior? It seems that would be very little potential intrigue in such a story, because what would the conflict be? I remember reading an alternate history novel a few years ago in which a German officials finds proof that the Nazi government killed off millions of people in death camps, and after that he was hunted down and killed by members of the SS. I can't remember the title, but I think it came out back in the 1980s. Maybe a similar story could be told about the 191 universe?

Harry Turtledove himself touched on this theme in his "Cold War Hot" series, in "Bombs Away" I think.
In the guise of a conversation between two characters about AH books, he basically says there's no real point to writing a "Nazis Win" book, because, well, if you have enough grasp of history you already know how it ends.

 

[Soundwave3591]

But what sort of a story could be told about a world in which Jake Featherston has finally killed off all of the people he deems to be inferior? It seems that would be very little potential intrigue in such a story, because what would the conflict be? I remember reading an alternate history novel a few years ago in which a German officials finds proof that the Nazi government killed off millions of people in death camps, and after that he was hunted down and killed by members of the SS. I can't remember the title, but I think it came out back in the 1980s. Maybe a similar story could be told about the 191 universe?

That sounds like the book/film "Fatherland."

 

[cortz#9]

That sounds like the book/film "Fatherland."

I was going to say the same.

 

[Allochronian]

Great points and this is exactly what Im talking about combating-something that could be so insidious that it could get adopted into the "common knowledge" of well everybody knows that. Hopefully there would be lots of scholarship like in OTL to combat this horrible falsehood like the book Featherston's Willing Executioners that examines how the Freedomites were able to find thousands of willing participants in the Destruction including a large number from the formerly Mexican Confederate states who were actually considered lower beings in Freedomite racial ideology themselves but apparently not worthy of genocide....

Depending on your personal dispositions, the idea of a "Clean Confederate Army" is something that gets picked up as a legitimate historical argument or is mostly condemned by U.S. historians.

It would be interesting to see how foreign historians (German, Japanese, Austrian, French, English, Russian, etc), mostly free of American cultural sensibilities, agree or disagree with the idea that there were two Confederacies: One Freedomite and one that was wasn't, even if the latter was still a racist society.

EDIT Also such people who spout this bring up this guy frequently - https://turtledove.fandom.com/wiki/Boris_Lavochkin

I tend to imagine him as someone who was popular after the war to the American people, but was never fully brought up with charges by the military when he was alive.

There might be a statue of him somewhere in the USA, but eventually taken down or constantly vandalized once his actions during the SGW become common knowledge nearly half a century or so later.

 

[MaxGerke01]

But what sort of a story could be told about a world in which Jake Featherston has finally killed off all of the people he deems to be inferior? It seems that would be very little potential intrigue in such a story, because what would the conflict be? I remember reading an alternate history novel a few years ago in which a German officials finds proof that the Nazi government killed off millions of people in death camps, and after that he was hunted down and killed by members of the SS. I can't remember the title, but I think it came out back in the 1980s. Maybe a similar story could be told about the 191 universe?

That is essentially the plot of Fatherland which was actually panned by some people who dont get AH for Harris having the big shocker as the Nazis having completed the Holocaust. There was this smug kind of no shit from them but that point seems hollow at best in a world with Holocaust deniers and even more Holocaust downplayers and equivocators

Depending on your personal dispositions, the idea of a "Clean Confederate Army" is something that gets picked up as a legitimate historical argument or is mostly condemned by U.S. historians.

It would be interesting to see how foreign historians (German, Japanese, Austrian, French, English, Russian, etc), mostly free of American cultural sensibilities, agree or disagree with the idea that there were two Confederacies: One Freedomite and one that was wasn't, even if the latter was still a racist society.



I tend to imagine him as someone who was popular after the war to the American people, but was never fully brought up with charges by the military when he was alive.

There might be a statue of him somewhere in the USA, but eventually taken down or constantly vandalized once his actions during the SGW become common knowledge nearly half a century or so later.

One suspects that the Germans and Austrians would see it from the US perspective while the British,French, Russians and Japanese would probably see things more from the Confederate side-they couldnt have been all bad since they were our allies right ?

Truth be told ole Boris doesnt hold a candle to the average guard at Camp Determination which it comes to basic depravity but there would be a campaign to make what he did equivalent to the Freedomites. Similar to the OTL idea that the Allied bombing of German cities was as bad as what Germany did to England and other countries-a bit of a moral blindspot...

 

[S. Marlowski]

On a another subject, I wonder what ITTL's version of the Wehraboo phenomenon would be like?

And another thing, I could Destruction-Denial also being a thing ITTL, much like Holocaust Denial is in OTL.

 

[pattontank12]

Wonder show's like Black-ish and The Boondocks that center around modern African Americans would be like.