(POLL) WWII Squad Organization: Garand or Bren

Should the squad have one or two automatic rifles?

  • One automatic rifle and the balance semi-auto rifles

  • Two automatic rifles and the balance bolt-action rifles


Results are only viewable after voting.

Deleted member 1487

What do you think is the difference between one 20 lbs gun with a 20 round magazine and a QC barrel and the other? Compared to the Vz-26, the BAR is compromised by the combination of under-barrel gas tube snd bottom-feed, but they are functionally identical when they have the same options.

As far as I can tell, an LMG in the WWII context is normally the squad (sometimes the platoon) machine gun, so it's a role more than a type. The automatic rifle is normally defined as a machine gun fed by box magazines that usually is used as an LMG.
Plus the Bren once it got a chromed bore had such a low effective rate of fire that barrel swaps weren't needed, so spare barrels were left at home. The BAR used a hotter cartridge and IIRC had a higher ROF, so overheated more readily than the Bren.

The Polish wz 28 is very close to the original BAR. It weights 13 pounds, not 20, lacks a QCB and is not meant for sustained fire like the Vz30. If you use a BAR with a QCB, like the swedish model 37, it can fulfill the LMG role.
Per wikipedia that Polish BAR was heavier than the US BAR used in WW2, over 9kg.

A squad should, regardless of rir type either have two automatic rifles (like the BAR) or one light MG (like the Bren) a single AR doesn't provide enough sustained volume of fire and two LMG turn the rifle squad into an over large LMG squad.
My ideal WW2 platoon would be:
3x Rifle squads
1 Sergent, two team leaders, eight riflemen (total, nine rifles and two automatic rifles)
1x command squad
1 officer, platoon sergent, radio operator, LMG team (2 LMG four men) Grenade Launcher team (two 50mm GL four men)
Squad total, nine rifles two GL two LMG.
Platoon total
44 men, 36 rifles, 6 AR, 2 LMG, 2GL
Weapons of choice (in 1939:
KAR98
Polish BAR in 7,92 Mauser
VZ30 in 7,92 mauser
Type 89 50mm GL
If we are going to mix and match, why not a RPD or Vz58 style LMG? Frankly the intermediate cartridge automatic weapon is the way to go for squad level use.
 
Plus the Bren once it got a chromed bore had such a low effective rate of fire that barrel swaps weren't needed, so spare barrels were left at home. The BAR used a hotter cartridge and IIRC had a higher ROF, so overheated more readily than the Bren.


Per wikipedia that Polish BAR was heavier than the US BAR used in WW2, over 9kg.
After conflicting numbers in various sources I would settle on 19+ pounds like the 1918A2. The wz28 has a rather heavy looking barrel.
I would rather have something lighter, but choices are limited in 1939 for automatic rifles.
 

Deleted member 1487

After conflicting numbers in various sources I would settle on 19+ pounds like the 1918A2. The wz28 has a rather heavy looking barrel.
I would rather have something lighter, but choices are limited in 1939 for automatic rifles.
Technically the STG44 is an automatic rifle. Add a heavy barrel and you'd be there.
 
Technically the STG44 is an automatic rifle. Add a heavy barrel and you'd be there.
I had limited my choice to 1939. You get a lot more choices in later years
For example adding a bazooka team and dropping the dedicated grenade launcher team.
I was also limiting myself to existing weapons in the same caliber.
Takes out most of the fun, but reduces use of hindsight.
 
Technically the STG44 is an automatic rifle. Add a heavy barrel and you'd be there.

An RPD style StG looks likely. I think it would be developed but . . . The CETME Ameli looks like the MG42 scaled down to 5.56mm, so I will give you a kurz firing lighter version of the familiar MG as an alternate UMG (truly lMG and okay-ish MMG). Germany used drums, can we leap to a belt feed from an underslung box, more portable but less complicated than a real drum? Does this push for a heavier HMG caliber, 13mm TuF inspired?
 

Deleted member 1487

I had limited my choice to 1939. You get a lot more choices in later years
For example adding a bazooka team and dropping the dedicated grenade launcher team.
I was also limiting myself to existing weapons in the same caliber.
Takes out most of the fun, but reduces use of hindsight.
If that case Vollmer M35:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vollmer_M35
;)

An RPD style StG looks likely. I think it would be developed but . . . The CETME Ameli looks like the MG42 scaled down to 5.56mm, so I will give you a kurz firing lighter version of the familiar MG as an alternate UMG (truly lMG and okay-ish MMG). Germany used drums, can we leap to a belt feed from an underslung box, more portable but less complicated than a real drum? Does this push for a heavier HMG caliber, 13mm TuF inspired?
The Ameli is basically a MG45 scaled down to 5.56.

German MG34 drums just held the belt, they weren't actually drum fed. An MG42 or 45 in 7.92 Kurz would be pretty damn good, but still not as good as a 5.56 version just due to the obvious advantages within 300m and arguably beyond in some measures.

By the 1930s there was only the 7.92x92 anti-tank rifle round. It was probably too hot for an MG, but maybe not, though the neck on that thing is nuts:
http://www.municion.org/patrone318/patrone318.htm

Perhaps with a 10.75mm bullet it would work?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10.75×68mm_Mauser

But the MG for it would be huge. Actually the cartridge was about the same measurements of the US .50 cal (IIRC it was based on the German 13mm WW1 AT rifle round), so given 1930s technology it would be close to the M2 MG in size and weight. I'm thinking the 9x64mm (i.e. a necked down 13mm MG131 cartridge) would be more viable because it could be made considerably lighter than the M2 and the ammo would be lighter, but still have much better performance than the 7.92 HMG.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Expensive, experimental...
I'm feeling conservative today.
No one mentioned cost. Plus in production costs would be quite a bit less than the prototype. It was production ready before the start of WW2, but the Wehrmacht didn't want a new caliber or a milled weapon that would be more expensive than the K98k.
 
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