Would Byzantium be better off without Justinian's conquests?

  • Yes

    Votes: 159 71.0%
  • No

    Votes: 65 29.0%

  • Total voters
    224

Red Orm

Banned
If he delegates more to Belisarius and Narses, RIP Persia.

If he tells Belisarius to come back at random arbitrary points instead of pressing the advantage, RIP East Rome.

Belisarius already commanded against Persia, and in high command. He did a great job, no doubt, but hardly anything showing that he could defeat Persia with the resources at hand.

The Persian capital was in Mesopotamia, and their economic base was also in Mesopotamia. Mesopotamia was by far the most valuable province within the Sassanian Empire.

The Persian winter capital was in Mesopotamia. As for it being the most valuable province, now you see why it should be so hard for Rome to conquer.

That's because each time the Romans were only able to take the outlying regions of Mesopotamia,they never succeeded in taking the wealthiest portions,which is around Ctesiphon.

You are also assuming that someone can even unify the Persian plateau,instead of the region getting balkanized into several successor states.

Which just goes to prove my point. The geography of the area and Mesopotamia's status as a jewel among all provinces in either empire precludes it from being conquered. And as for Persia being unified, why not? That's been the norm for most of history. But of course, Alexander happened, so really anything is possible. I just said that is was really unlikely.
 
IMO if Justinian focused on getting more cheddar for the Imperial Treasury then it the conquests would have been able to be around for a while after his death.
 
I think his expeditions were profitable to an extent, really I see no reason to push to northern Italy or southern Hispania/Mauritania. Otherwise, if Justinian would've focused more on keeping the empire stable and profitable it would've been better.
 
I'd say no, because the chances of a; the war lasting that long, and ;b, the Lombards shattering the central European power equation and invading at the best possible time, were pretty small from the vantage of the early 530's. Furthermore, an Italy that was allowed to recover and adjust would end up not only paying for itself, but also contributing to the revenues and manpower of the ERE, as the African example showed. This means that, to the extent that Italy would have dispersed resources away from the rivalry with Persia, it would also have contributed resources to that struggle. Finally, the political benefits of conquest, while uncertain, should not be discounted. They could potentially include both purely political and knock-on practical consequences, such as, an ability to better dominate the Balkans because the Romans would have armies on its southern and western boundaries, greater influence over the Western Church enabling a more coherent religious policy, lessons in the Italian war and the reintegration of the peninsula being used to improve the army and bureaucracy, and so on. In conclusion, I'd say that, from the perspective of Justinian, (or, indeed, any well-informed observer) at the time of the invasion, the ideological benefits would have most likely been ultimately accompanied by material and second-order political positive effects, and the cascade of disasters that was the OTL result was rather unlikely.
 
While it is possible (as it happened IOTL) that a single campaign can be successful in reclaiming provinces of the former WRE, it is very much unlikely that the ERE can win a quick series of campaigns, and even more unlikely that these new provinces can become a contributor (rather than a drain) to the empire.
There are also other factors that should weigh against military adventures in the Western Mediterranean: Justinian is just the second emperor of a new dynasty, which came to power by usurping the rights of the former one, does not have a heir and the Nika riots are very recent; there is the problem of monophysitism in Egypt and Syria (which are the richest provinces of the empire) and solving it by persecution does not seem a good policy, but expanding in the west would incentivate a hard Chalcedonian approach; expanding the borders of the empire shall also increase the need for military resources, which have to be taken away from the Danube and the Sassanid borders, and increases also the danger of insurrections given the distance.
It would be nice to say: let's take back Africa. However if the venture goes badly it is a disaster, if it is successful will whet the imperial appetite for additional expansion.
 
I just read a book (Edward Luttwak: The grand strategy of the Byzantine Empire) that speculated that Justinian's reconquests were feasible and completly within the Empire's ability to pull of. According to it the problem was the plague that hit the Empire and it was that that turned the whole into overextension.

If he is right than I have a better opinion of Justinian.
 
Simply put because it has been stated more than once...

While I voted yes, Personally, it is kind of a split. Africa is definitely worth it, since the Vandalic Kingdom was definitely hostile to Byzantium, even after the fall of Western Rome. Plus Africa was of a much richer base and gives Byzantium access to Sahelian trading nodes.

However the conquest of Pannonia & Italy was indeed a wasted effort, and a wiser Justinian, even if he wished to still regain Rome, should've went with more limited campaigns with more realistic war goals (i.e. Pannonia or even Southern Italy. Ostrogothia was to big a pill to swallow, especially as it was still trying to digest Vandalia.
 
Simply put because it has been stated more than once...

While I voted yes, Personally, it is kind of a split. Africa is definitely worth it, since the Vandalic Kingdom was definitely hostile to Byzantium, even after the fall of Western Rome. Plus Africa was of a much richer base and gives Byzantium access to Sahelian trading nodes.

However the conquest of Pannonia & Italy was indeed a wasted effort, and a wiser Justinian, even if he wished to still regain Rome, should've went with more limited campaigns with more realistic war goals (i.e. Pannonia or even Southern Italy. Ostrogothia was to big a pill to swallow, especially as it was still trying to digest Vandalia.

I might have said this already on this thread, but Italy was basically conquered until the governor Justinian sent over ended up alienating pretty much everybody (IIRC, by demanding the past 64 years of back taxes immediately) and inadvertently reignited Gothic resistance. Having a more competent governor could result in the war ending in 540 instead of 554, in which case the conquest of Italy would most probably have been worth it.
 
Really unlikely though. For all of the Roman Empire's strength at this time, Mesopotamia is just geopolitically unsuited to defense from the west. Armies have to march across mountains and deserts to get there, or else be garrisoned there permanently and get food constantly shipped or diverted to/bought for them. Compound this with the fact that any state dominating the Iranian plateau can just swoop down out of the Zagros and onto the plain, wreaking havoc and kicking ass, for a force to invade the Zagros from the west, with all its forts and the uphill climb and unfamiliar terrain, is an absolute nightmare.

So, not impossible, but if Justinian was too incompetent to take half of Italy without slaughtering half of the people living there, I don't see what he can do with Mesopotamia, one of the wealthiest, most densely populated, and religiously unwilling-to-be-ruled-by-bigoted-fanatics areas at this time period.
The Ottomans would like to have a word
 

Thomas1195

Banned
An easier conquest of Italy would be a net gain for Justinian. First, have Justinian recalling Belisarius few months later than IOTL so that the latter could complete his conquest. Another choice would be having Belisarius accepting Justianian's peace proposal dividing Italy over the Po river.
 
Any outcome is possible, honestly.

However, having two fairly powerful, fairly centralized states (Gothic and Vandalic Kingdoms) at its doorstep, one with a good army and the other one with a good navy, is an enormous liability. A "Just sit tight" strategy can very easily backfire, and the Empire could very well have fallen in the early 600s.

Therefor, I vote 'NO'.
 
Gunpowder empires are also a slightly different beast.
I would say that logistics would favor an invasion of Mesopotamia from the west, using the rivers to bring supplies.
Even if lower Mesopotamia is arguably harder to hold, keeping a firm grip over upper Mesopotamia should be a must for the ERE, both as shield to Syria and as threat to Ctesiphon.

As far as the gunpowder role, there may be an imbalance if one of the parties has it and the other has not yet managed to reform its army accordingly. Otherwise there is not a lot of a difference, unless we're talking of a settled empire fighting nomads: in this case, it is quite obvious that the nomads will never be in a position to secure and maintain enough firearms (and could not have an artillery).
 
I voted yes, but simply because of the way the question stands.

If Belisarius had been given the men to make his conquest of Italy smoother, then my answer changes to a no. Simply because then you'd have had a quick victory, and a relatively unharmed Italy. With the Plague, and Persian invasions, holding African and Italy is a challenge in and of itself. But if those hold, and the Plague and Persians are survived, then Justianians restoration, whilst vastly incomplete, has to be considered wildly successful in the circumstances. Any further conquests can be continued by his heirs under that principle of restoring the Pax Romana. That would make everything Justinian would have done worth it IMO.
 
However, having two fairly powerful, fairly centralized states (Gothic and Vandalic Kingdoms) at its doorstep, one with a good army and the other one with a good navy, is an enormous liability. A "Just sit tight" strategy can very easily backfire, and the Empire could very well have fallen in the early 600s.

No doubt if that happened, AH.com would now be full of people arguing that Justinian was an over-cautious man who did great long-term harm to the Empire by not taking the opportunity to reconquer the western provinces and boost Byzantium's strategic depth against invaders from the east. :p
 
Imo,i never get why people blame justinian conquest for ERE overextension. People forget that belisarius conquered africa and 3/4th of italy with less then 25000 men.

Iberia might had been a mistake but still, Africa will later prove very useful during heraclius reign and italy serves as a shield to the imperial heartland of greece and anatolia, so its a net gain in the end. Its overextension was caused by the plague and If i am not mistaken, The Justinian plague will happen regardless of what he do.
 
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