Poll : Who was the greatest ruler of France?

[Yorel]

From the list of the rulers of France, I took those that I considered to be great rulers and decided to see which one was the best for the people on AH.com in that list.

Since there can be a debate around when France was created, I didn't took into account the Kings before 843 and the Treaty of Verdun. This sadly excludes the great merovingian Kings (such as Clovis I) and Charlemagne, but the Frankish Kingdom (and later Empire) did not only gave birth to France, but also to Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland and the North Italian States.

After 843, I choosed some of those who could be considered as great kings. The question I ask you now is : Among the following ones, who was the best ruler of France?

1. Charles II the Bald (823-877, r.843-877)
Grandson of Charlemagne and first ruler of Western Francia (and thus France). Became Holy Roman Emperor in 875.

2.Philip II Augustus (1165-1223, r.1180-1223)
Only son of king Louis VII of France and the first true great king in my opinion. At the beginning of his reign, royal control was weak and the Plantagenêt were ruling all of Western France. His political skills and some of the battles he did allowed him to increase royal control and destroyed the Plantagenêt Empire, leaving only Guyenne in the hands of the Kings of England. He was also one of the greatest administrator of the Middle Age.

3.Louis IX the Saint/Saint Louis (1214-1270, r.1226-1270)
Son of Louis VIII and Blanche of Castille. A very pious king who went twice on Crusade (during the seventh and the eighth). He had a great sense of Justice and was seen as great arbiter : many turned to him when a crisis had to be resolved, even some foreign kings.
He was declared a saint by the Catholic Church in 1297.

4.Philip IV the Fair (1268-1314, r.1285-1314)
Eldest son of Philip III of France. Considered as the first absolute monarch by some historian. He reformed France, notably the economy, and further strenghtened royal control. He also had the Pope move from Rome to Avignon, thus weaking Papal power and giving the image that the King of France was stronger than the Pope.
He is also known to have destroyed the Templar Order.

5.Charles V the Wise (1338-1380, r.1368-1380)
Eldest son of John II of France and third king of the Valois dynasty.
He already assumed power when his father was taken as a prisonner by the Black Prince to England. Despite early troubles, Charles V reformed the state to recover the political ground lost by the French kings and to make the French economy recover.
His reign also saw major actions during the Hundred Years Wars, notably the actions of Bertrand Du Guesclin. Among many things, Charles V got rid of the threat caused by his cousin Charles II (the Bad) of Navarre and diplomatically isolated England.

6.Charles VII the Victorious, The Well Served (1403-1461, r.1422-1461)
Only surviving son of Charles VI and Isabella of Bavaria. His own mother declared him illegitimate and he had no real power in 1422, as Charles VII had made Henry V of England his heir, making the English ruling France.
With the help of Joan of Arc, he is able to recover his legitimacy and to be crowned king at Reims in 1429. Even after the death of the Pucelle, Charles VII continues the war and drived the English out of France in 1453.
He had numerous good councelors during his reign and was a good king.

7.Louis XI the Prudent, the Universal Spider (1423-1483, r.1461-1483)
Eldest son of Charles VII. One of the greatest kings of France on the political side, he weakened the power of the French feudal nobility.
He had to battle throuhought his reign, first against the nobles lead by his own younger brother, the ambitious Duke Charles of Berry. He also had to face the Duke of Burgundy Charles the Bold who was planning to acquire Kingship by uniting the Burgundian lands. In the end, Louis XI was able to claim the Duchy of Burgundy after Charles' death, though he had to give Flanders and other Burgundian possessions to Maximilian of Habsbourg, husband of Mary of Burgundy, only child of Charles the Bold.

8.Francis I, the Father and Restorer of Letters (1494-1547, r.1515-1547)
Son of Count Charles of Angoulême, he was the cousin and heir to king Louis XII of France, whom bethroed him his only daughter Claude.
Francis I was one of the three great monarchs of Renaissance Europe, alongside Henry VIII of England and Holy Roman Emperor Charles V.
He passed a law enforcing French as the only state language, thus weakening the power of regional languages. His reign also saw the building of many mangificient Castle on the Loire River, notably Chambord.
Though he was not a great military leader (he won a great victory at Marignan but lost a greater battle at Pavie), he left quite a mark on the French culture, notably in litterature.
Francis I also sent Jacques Cartier to Canada, where the latter would create the basis for the establishment of New France.

9.Henry IV the Great, "the Good King Henry", "the Green Gallant" (1553-1610, r.1589-1610)
Fist king of the Bourbon dynasty. He putted an end to the religious wars by converting from Protestantism to Catholicism and by edicting the "Edit de Nantes", which guaranteed religious freedom. He was extremly popular and his assassination caused quite a shock in France.

10.Louis XIV the Great, the Sun King (1638-1715, r.1643-1715)
Eldest son of Louis XIII and Anne of Austria. He was the king that had the strongest royal authority in French history and also one of the major european monarchs of his time. He built the Versailles Castle and succeeded in placing one of his grandsons as king of Spain, though the latter couldn't claim the crown of France.

11.Napoleon I the Great (1769-1821, r.1804-1814 then 1815)
He counts : though he is not a king, he was Emperor of the French. Besides, I said I was determining the best "ruler", not the best "king"
One of the most known historical figure. Napoleon Bonaparte rose from a lowly artillery general to first consul then Emperor of the French during the French Revolution. He effectively put an end to the revolution by crowning himself Emperor, which allowed Revolutionnary ideas to settle down in the mind of the French people. These ideas were expanded throuhought Europe by Napoleon's many victories and conquests.
Napoleon was a military genius and he scored many incredible victory such as Austerlitz and Iena-Auerstedt. This allowed him to dominate Europe until 1812, when his army was destroyed in Russia. He was the defeated at Leipzig in 1813 and, even though he did an heroic Six Days Campaign, he was forced to abdicate in 1814 and exiled to Elba.
What contributed greatly to his legend (in my opinion) was the Hundred Days, when he returned to France in 1815 to rule for three months. After he arrived at Golfe Juan, he moved from town to town and arrived in Paris without having spilled a single drop of French blood. Yet, he was ultimately defeated at Waterloo and exiled again, this time to St.Helena where he died in 1821.

12.Napoleon III (1808-1873, r.1852-1870)
Nephew of Napoleon I. He is oddly both the first president of France (he was elected in 1848 with 75% of the votes) and the last monarch the country ever knew.
Though his foreign policies were a complete disaster and caused his fall, Napoleon III was a very competent ruler when it came to internal politics.

 

[archaeogeek]

I'm kind of disappointed that Henry III is missing as a lot of the successes attributed to Henry IV are actually jointly between Henry III and Henry IV (who at the time was III but of Navarra). Although I guess the legend has confused his being rather effeminate for weakness, something I deplore (but his reign was admittedly short) - plus he did get rid of two of the Guise leaders, leaving only Paris in the way of an end to the wars of religion, until they kind of flared up again under Louis XIII.

Same for Louis XIII v. Louis XIV really although a lot of the political successes are attributable to his judgement in people (with some exceptions) and finding THE minister, i.e. Richelieu (the journée des dupes was awesome; one day he's a lowly secretary for the queen mother, the next day he's basically the power behind the throne and Louis XIII has simultaneously gotten rid of half his political enemies) and the bases of the absolute monarchy were pretty much laid down as Richelieu and Louis XIII were campaigning to finish the wars of religion once and for all.

I was torn on who to pick and Napoleon was kind of a flash in the pan... Went with Francis I because unlike many of his succesors he did have a complete view of the wealth of a society (iirc he was the one who confirmed that nobles engaging in foreign/bulk/maritime trade retained their full status, and he supported arts and commerce in general in addition to the traditional bureaucracy and war of the nobility; I'd have given a thought to Louis XIV but like Napoleon the constant expansionism feels a bit, idk, France was already the most powerful country on the continent so "securing national borders" is kind of an empty excuse when you can single handedly woop the collective asses of half of Europe; Francis I's wars in Italy were mostly things his predecessors had landed on his lap, although I do admit he still took part heavily anyway so that makes me a hypocrite ) - to be fair I have a pro-renaissance bias.

 

[Quatermain]

I'm going to go with Napoleon, or Louis XIV.

 

[Shawn Endresen]

I'm a little surprised that Louis XIII didn't make the list. There's a tendency to focus on Richeliu instead, but that's a bit misguided - the objectives were Louis', as generally were the means. He did a great deal to bring unruly subjects into line without seriously harming France while also increasing France's power and prestige abroad.

Louis XI is called 'the Prudent' by francophones? Heh. I've only ever heard him called the Spider in English.

 

[modelcitizen]

the quatorze has a rocking sculpture portrait.

Napoleon liberated the ghettos! love that.

 

[Yorel]

I'm kind of disappointed that Henry III is missing as a lot of the successes attributed to Henry IV are actually jointly between Henry III and Henry IV (who at the time was III but of Navarra). Although I guess the legend has confused his being rather effeminate for weakness, something I deplore (but his reign was admittedly short) - plus he did get rid of two of the Guise leaders, leaving only Paris in the way of an end to the wars of religion, until they kind of flared up again under Louis XIII.

I think I didn't put Henry III in the list because, even if he did a lot to end the Religious Wars, he couldn't achieve it during his reign.
There is also probably a part of false assumptions on my part and a little lack of knowledge on Henry III.

Same for Louis XIII v. Louis XIV really although a lot of the political successes are attributable to his judgement in people (with some exceptions) and finding THE minister, i.e. Richelieu (the journée des dupes was awesome; one day he's a lowly secretary for the queen mother, the next day he's basically the power behind the throne and Louis XIII has simultaneously gotten rid of half his political enemies) and the bases of the absolute monarchy were pretty much laid down as Richelieu and Louis XIII were campaigning to finish the wars of religion once and for all.

I'm a little surprised that Louis XIII didn't make the list. There's a tendency to focus on Richeliu instead, but that's a bit misguided - the objectives were Louis', as generally were the means. He did a great deal to bring unruly subjects into line without seriously harming France while also increasing France's power and prestige abroad.

Truth to be told, I hesitated in putting Louis XIII in the list. Looking back, I should have put him instead of Charles II, whom is probably not as great as the others I choosed.
Louis XIII was a great king and had the best partner in Cardinal Richelieu. I think I hesitated because of a lack of knowledge and false assumption caused by Alexandre Dumas (Louis XIII is kind of weak in the Three Musketeers).

Louis XI is called 'the Prudent' by francophones? Heh. I've only ever heard him called the Spider in English.

Well, Louis XI was called the Spider because it was said that he had numerous agents everywhere and thus could caught a great number of people in his web. This gave him the image of a very cautious person, which probably the reason he was nicknamed 'the Prudent'.

To be frank, as Frenchman, I discovered his nickname of "Spider" on AH.com. Louis XI is (sadly I must say) one of the king we speak the less of in France, despite the fact he was probably a very good one.
You can probably blame that on Victor Hugo : he describes Louis XI in some kind of a nasty way in some of his books.

 

[archaeogeek]

Truth to be told, I hesitated in putting Louis XIII in the list. Looking back, I should have put him instead of Charles II, whom is probably not as great as the others I choosed.
Louis XIII was a great king and had the best partner in Cardinal Richelieu. I think I hesitated because of a lack of knowledge and false assumption caused by Alexandre Dumas (Louis XIII is kind of weak in the Three Musketeers).

I actually only knew Louis XI by l'araignée universelle as a nickname.
Also, it's hard for Richelieu not to overshadow pretty much everyone around him, the man had the political acumen of a Talleyrand; at 22 he was the too-young bishop of France's poorest diocese, under pressure by his parents because their second son had decided he'd rather be a monk so they could keep pilfering the diocese's rents. Something which he fixed pretty fast. At 28 he was on the conseil d'état as one of the queen mother's most trusted advisers, and by the time he was 32, he was the second most powerful man in France, a cardinal and a duke, after something like only one year of disgrace in which he figures he might as well write philosophy. This, after the Queen mother is banished and her two other favorites are killed in a palace coup by Louis XIII; he had epic staying power.

And like Descartes, a lot of his philosophical education came through his free time as an officer.

 

[Janprimus]

Although it probably should be Louis XIV, I think I'll vote for Philip II Augustus...

 

[Rex Romanum]

Well, only one French ruler who could conquer Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Holy Roman Empire, as well as manage to threaten Britain and Russia. Moreover, he was (as you said) considered as one of military genius alongside Alexander, Hannibal, Caesar, Khalid ibn Al walid, and Genghis Khan.
All hail Emperor Napoleon I the Great!!!

 

[sendô]

Phillip II Augustus for me. The Plantagenet Kings effectively ruled more of France than he did at the start of his reign, and he could well have ended up with his whole Kingdom in English hands (although the Plantagenets were still pretty much French themselves).

 

[Utgard96]

Well, only one French ruler who could conquer Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Holy Roman Empire, as well as manage to threaten Britain and Russia. Moreover, he was (as you said) considered as one of military genius alongside Alexander, Hannibal, Caesar, Khalid ibn Al walid, and Genghis Khan.
Al hail Emperor Napoleon I the Great!!!

You forgot about Gustav II Adolf and Karl X Gustav, my good friend.

I voted for Napoleon as well. This board doesn't seem to have a lot of respect for the French kings of old, not even the one that was sanctified

 

[Mikestone8]

Has to be Philip II. Without him there might not even be a France as we know it - just a loose collection of Duchies and Counties, rather like Germnay was for most of its history. Speaking as an Englishman I wouldn't unduly mind that, but as I'm choosing a French ruler I suppose I have to look at it from their pov.

Second choice would be Louis XIV. He made really important territorial gains for France. Without him its border could have settled on the Meuse instead of the Rhine. It could be argued that he lived too long, as nearly all his lasting acquisitions were made by about 1678, but he's a net gain.

Third choice, maybe Henri IV for putting the country back together after the Wars of Religion, though Louis XI was also apretty effective ruler who strengthened the kingdom.

I'm totally mystified about all the votes for Napoleon I. Ok, the Code was a plus, but not essential, while in foreign affairs he achieved nothing. He couldn't even retain the borders he had inherited from the old Republic.

 

[RPW@Cy]

Like Mikestone8 I'm totally mystified by the votes for Napoleon. After his reign France was smaller, poorer, occupied by foreign armies and had lost hundreds of thousands of her sons in needless battles. And the man himself ended his days chained to a rock in the South Atlantic. Sure, he had a good run along the way, but by almost any meaningful criterion he was a disaster for France.

By contrast, Louis XIV (who I voted for) left behind a France that was larger, stronger, wealthier and arguably better governed than at any point in her history up to then and than some points since. Thanks to Louis, France was established as indisputably the most powerful and culturally advanced country in the world until Napoleon wrecked everything.

 

[Mikestone8]

Like Mikestone8 I'm totally mystified by the votes for Napoleon. After his reign France was smaller, poorer, occupied by foreign armies and had lost hundreds of thousands of her sons in needless battles. And the man himself ended his days chained to a rock in the South Atlantic. Sure, he had a good run along the way, but by almost any meaningful criterion he was a disaster for France.

By contrast, Louis XIV (who I voted for) left behind a France that was larger, stronger, wealthier and arguably better governed than at any point in her history up to then and than some points since. Thanks to Louis, France was established as indisputably the most powerful and culturally advanced country in the world until Napoleon wrecked everything.

Napoleon I reminds me a lot of Richard the Lionheart - or maybe Edward III and Henry V - lots of glory along the way, but not much to show for it thirty years on (or in Richard's and Napoleon's cases a lot less). Austerlitz, Jena, Wagram and all the rest were no doubt famous victories, but, aside from plunder gained by individual soldiers, did they in the end do any more good for the French than Creçy, Poitiers or Agincourt did for the English?

Even his second-rate nephew could claim to have done better. He too lost in the end, but at least his loss of Alsace-Lorraine proved only temporary, while his gain of Nice and Savoy was permanent. So Napoleon III could be considered a net plus for France, if only a modest one. His uncle was the other side of the coin, ephemeral gains, permanent losses.

 

[The Kiat]

Doesn't this say something negative about the French, that their greatest leader was a Corsican?

 

[Spengler]

Louis XIII it may have been that it was reichleu doing the dirty work but he never told Reichleu to not fuck over the Hapsburgs or not stop supporting the Protestant Sweedes. Far better than his son because he knew how to let his enemies fight his wars for him.

 

[loughery111]

I'm surprised that very few people are voting for the one person on that list who most measurably improved the lives of his subjects rather than getting involved in random foreign adventures, fighting wars against the English, building massive cultural works with public money, and generally screwing over the citizenry of the country at every turn... Thus, I voted for Henry IV. His most famous attribution ("I will ensure that there is no working man in my kingdom who does not have the means to have a chicken in the pot every Sunday!") would have been almost enough; that he actually took it seriously is quite impressive. Putting an end to the religious warfare in France is just icing on the cake.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Doesn't this say something negative about the French, that their greatest leader was a Corsican?

That Frenchmen rarely win wars in their own right?

Anyway, it's Philip II for me.

Also, I like Louis XI. Political chessmasters are always cool.

 

[Intosh]

Doesn't this say something negative about the French, that their greatest leader was a Corsican?

Napoleon was born in Ajaccio, Corsica but it was the Kingdom of France since one year. His family was recognised as french nobility, his father received an official position in the local government and was named Corsica's representative to Versailles in 1777.

Napoleon was educated in France, at Autun, in a catholic school, at Brienne, in a military academy, and in Paris at the prestigious Ecole Militaire.

He was an officer of the french royal army and the army of the French Republic.

When he met his childhood hero, Paoli, but he was disapointed and he fought against Paoli and his partisans who had decided to split with France and made Corsica a british territory. In 1793, Napoleon family must fled Ajaccio and Corsica, because the Bonaparte were favorable to the Republic and France. I don't think he never came back to Corsica...

In his will, he had asked to be buried on the banks of the Seine, in the midst of this French people who loved me so much.

 

[Captain Poplar]

Leave the Kiat alone, the poor guy suffers from chronic Francophobia. It sometimes requires a medical kicking from Ian.

I go with Henri IV. Ended the worst civil war in French history, restored the authority of the state, improved the economy, established an orgininal religious tolerance policy. Not to mention that a man who reportedly said that he thought, until his late twenties, and after his own experience, that penises had a bone inside gets all my admiration.

Close seconds : Philip II, Charles V, Louis XI : three great builders of the French state who successfully confronted the English and/or Imperial menace. Louis XIV lived twenty years too long and Napoleon should have stopped after Amiens or before the invasion of Spain.

Honorable mentions : Francis : poor strategist, but being Leonardo's protector and the man who built the Loire valley as we know it justifies it. Saint Louis for being the epitome of the Christian King. Charles VII : being a great king after having been on the verge of losing France deserves recognition.

Louis XIV lived twenty years too long and Napoleon should have stopped after Amiens or before the invasion of Spain.