Poll:Who was more liberal in the 1890s France, Germany, or the UK

Who was more liberal during the 1890s:UK, France, O

  • UK

    Votes: 28 34.6%
  • France

    Votes: 44 54.3%
  • Germany

    Votes: 9 11.1%

  • Total voters
    81
And I mean in their Metropoles not their Empires. Like who was more liberal with feminism, Jews, labour laws, welfare, voting rights, etc.

PS. I am not sure if this type of question belongs here or in chat, so I posted it in both as I am still new to this.
 
Germany certainly had the best social security system, but IMHO French society was culturally freer.
 
Germany certainly had the best social security system, but IMHO French society was culturally freer.

I would say the UK was the most classical liberal, Germany the most ordoliberal, and France the most left-liberal. Like I said, all depends how you define liberalism.
 
And I mean in their Metropoles not their Empires. Like who was more liberal with feminism, Jews, labour laws, welfare, voting rights, etc.

Jews: Jews were equal before the law in France since 1791 (also, Jews in the colonies could become French citizens, while Muslims couldn't), in Great Britain since 1858, in Germany since 1869

Feminism: I don't see real differences there between the three countries - all were equally conservative on women's rights

Voting rights:
- France had universal male suffrage for citizens over 21 since 1851 (Napoleon III's coup d'état)
- Germany had universal male suffrage for citizens over 25 since 1867 (Bismarck established the universal suffrage to weaken the liberals, but accidentally strengthened the socialist; since a large proportion of the German population was young, only around 20% of the population had the right to vote)
- Britain: universal male suffrage since 1918

Labour laws:
- Britain: unions legal since 1871
- Germany had very respressive labour laws since 1878 (Sozialistengesetze against socialist parties and unions), repealed in 1890
- France: unions legal since 1884 (loi Waldeck-Rousseau)

Welfare: Germany had a strong socialist movement, and Bismarck established a very social welfare system.

Homosexuality was a crime in both Britain and Germany (§ 175), whereas France had even an equal age of consent since 1791.
 
Jews: Jews were equal before the law in France since 1791 (also, Jews in the colonies could become French citizens, while Muslims couldn't), in Great Britain since 1858, in Germany since 1869

Feminism: I don't see real differences there between the three countries - all were equally conservative on women's rights

Voting rights:
- France had universal male suffrage for citizens over 21 since 1851 (Napoleon III's coup d'état)
- Germany had universal male suffrage for citizens over 25 since 1867 (Bismarck established the universal suffrage to weaken the liberals, but accidentally strengthened the socialist; since a large proportion of the German population was young, only around 20% of the population had the right to vote)
- Britain: universal male suffrage since 1918

Labour laws:
- Britain: unions legal since 1871
- Germany had very respressive labour laws since 1878 (Sozialistengesetze against socialist parties and unions), repealed in 1890
- France: unions legal since 1884 (loi Waldeck-Rousseau)

Welfare: Germany had a strong socialist movement, and Bismarck established a very social welfare system.

Homosexuality was a crime in both Britain and Germany (§ 175), whereas France had even an equal age of consent since 1791.
So , it appears that France was overall more liberal in the 1890s.
 
According to the poll, the UK was the most liberal, though.
There is a difference between cultural and institutional liberalism, though. For instance, France might have had theoretical equality for the Jews since 1791, but Britain never had a Dreyfus affair. Germany might have had a wider franchise, but Lord Salisbury was Prime Minster because he could command a majority in the House of Commons and not because he was selected by the monarch. Had you listed some different criteria for 'liberal'- freedom of speech, independence of the press and judiciary- the breakdown you were responding to might have skewed somewhat differently.
 
There is a difference between cultural and institutional liberalism, though. For instance, France might have had theoretical equality for the Jews since 1791, but Britain never had a Dreyfus affair. Germany might have had a wider franchise, but Lord Salisbury was Prime Minster because he could command a majority in the House of Commons and not because he was selected by the monarch. Had you listed some different criteria for 'liberal'- freedom of speech, independence of the press and judiciary- the breakdown you were responding to might have skewed somewhat differently.
Regarding Dreyfus, you could argue it happened precisely because the society was becoming even more liberal.

It's in the context of anti-clericalism and a relatively open society fighting against old traditions and old society. To me Dreygus is more one of the last gasp of the old France
 
Probably true. However, the fact that nothing similar was happening in Britain leads directly to the inference that Britain was already more liberal.
Or that it wasn't there yet ;)

We also shouldn't forget that French society at the time was very very tense with the fight for secularisation and the paranoia over Germany. That paranoia is what directly led to Dreyfus after all
 
Or that it wasn't there yet ;)
If I was able to think of some similar watershed moment that happened in Britain later down the line, then I'd agree with you. As things stand, I think it's more probable that Britain was more liberal.

We also shouldn't forget that French society at the time was very very tense with the fight for secularisation and the paranoia over Germany. That paranoia is what directly led to Dreyfus after all
Exactly. Paranoia about potential disloyalty is directly incompatible with liberalism, which implicitly requires a tolerance of dissent- one of the criteria which was missing from the original list. Just as Crimean War Britain was more liberal than Civil War America, and 1900s Britain was more liberal than WWI Britain, 1890s Britain (as a less 'tense' society) seems to have been more liberal in this respect than 1890s France.
 

Stolengood

Banned
Germany certainly had the best social security system, but IMHO French society was culturally freer.
Tell that to Alfred Dreyfus.

And Britain was no better -- look at what happened to Oscar Wilde for proof of that. By process of elimination, the clear choice's Germany, as warlike as they might have been.
 

Redbeard

Banned
Regarding Dreyfus, you could argue it happened precisely because the society was becoming even more liberal.

It's in the context of anti-clericalism and a relatively open society fighting against old traditions and old society. To me Dreygus is more one of the last gasp of the old France

Before and during the Dreyfuss affair France had very strong anti-semitic tendencies, but I'm actually in doubt if they were stronger than mostwhere. That it was possible through free speech (Zola) and the legal system to roll back the scandal says a lot of good about France though.

After the scandal the confidence in the Army was at an absolute low point, but at least it also cleared the way for the comprehensivearmy reforms of 1911, whithout which France probably had been rolled over like in 1870 and 1940.

So if "liberal" in the cultural context I would vote France, but if in a classical economics context I would vote UK. In a social context Germany would be "winner" as the social Laws of Bismarckian Germany were quite comprehensive and laid much of the fundament of German socialdemocrats and hence the Scandinavian welfare state.
 
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