Germany certainly had the best social security system, but IMHO French society was culturally freer.
And I mean in their Metropoles not their Empires. Like who was more liberal with feminism, Jews, labour laws, welfare, voting rights, etc.
So , it appears that France was overall more liberal in the 1890s.Jews: Jews were equal before the law in France since 1791 (also, Jews in the colonies could become French citizens, while Muslims couldn't), in Great Britain since 1858, in Germany since 1869
Feminism: I don't see real differences there between the three countries - all were equally conservative on women's rights
Voting rights:
- France had universal male suffrage for citizens over 21 since 1851 (Napoleon III's coup d'état)
- Germany had universal male suffrage for citizens over 25 since 1867 (Bismarck established the universal suffrage to weaken the liberals, but accidentally strengthened the socialist; since a large proportion of the German population was young, only around 20% of the population had the right to vote)
- Britain: universal male suffrage since 1918
Labour laws:
- Britain: unions legal since 1871
- Germany had very respressive labour laws since 1878 (Sozialistengesetze against socialist parties and unions), repealed in 1890
- France: unions legal since 1884 (loi Waldeck-Rousseau)
Welfare: Germany had a strong socialist movement, and Bismarck established a very social welfare system.
Homosexuality was a crime in both Britain and Germany (§ 175), whereas France had even an equal age of consent since 1791.
So , it appears that France was overall more liberal in the 1890s.
According to the poll, the UK was the most liberal, though.Unsurprisingly - most of that is due to the French Revolution.
According to the poll, the UK was the most liberal, though.
There is a difference between cultural and institutional liberalism, though. For instance, France might have had theoretical equality for the Jews since 1791, but Britain never had a Dreyfus affair. Germany might have had a wider franchise, but Lord Salisbury was Prime Minster because he could command a majority in the House of Commons and not because he was selected by the monarch. Had you listed some different criteria for 'liberal'- freedom of speech, independence of the press and judiciary- the breakdown you were responding to might have skewed somewhat differently.According to the poll, the UK was the most liberal, though.
Regarding Dreyfus, you could argue it happened precisely because the society was becoming even more liberal.There is a difference between cultural and institutional liberalism, though. For instance, France might have had theoretical equality for the Jews since 1791, but Britain never had a Dreyfus affair. Germany might have had a wider franchise, but Lord Salisbury was Prime Minster because he could command a majority in the House of Commons and not because he was selected by the monarch. Had you listed some different criteria for 'liberal'- freedom of speech, independence of the press and judiciary- the breakdown you were responding to might have skewed somewhat differently.
Probably true. However, the fact that nothing similar was happening in Britain leads directly to the inference that Britain was already more liberal.Regarding Dreyfus, you could argue it happened precisely because the society was becoming even more liberal.
Or that it wasn't there yetProbably true. However, the fact that nothing similar was happening in Britain leads directly to the inference that Britain was already more liberal.
If I was able to think of some similar watershed moment that happened in Britain later down the line, then I'd agree with you. As things stand, I think it's more probable that Britain was more liberal.Or that it wasn't there yet![]()
Exactly. Paranoia about potential disloyalty is directly incompatible with liberalism, which implicitly requires a tolerance of dissent- one of the criteria which was missing from the original list. Just as Crimean War Britain was more liberal than Civil War America, and 1900s Britain was more liberal than WWI Britain, 1890s Britain (as a less 'tense' society) seems to have been more liberal in this respect than 1890s France.We also shouldn't forget that French society at the time was very very tense with the fight for secularisation and the paranoia over Germany. That paranoia is what directly led to Dreyfus after all
Tell that to Alfred Dreyfus.Germany certainly had the best social security system, but IMHO French society was culturally freer.
Have you also eliminated Paragraph 175 and the Harden–Eulenburg affair?By process of elimination, the clear choice's Germany, as warlike as they might have been.
Have you also eliminated Paragraph 175 and the Harden–Eulenburg affair?
Regarding Dreyfus, you could argue it happened precisely because the society was becoming even more liberal.
It's in the context of anti-clericalism and a relatively open society fighting against old traditions and old society. To me Dreygus is more one of the last gasp of the old France
But surely if Oscar Wilde is what "eliminates" Britain, and Germany has its own Oscar Wilde, then Germany is also eliminated by the same method? That leaves nobody.Yeah, Germany had its own Oscar Wildes and Alan Turings.