Poll : What people could invade and rule China

Which group do you think would be interesting as Chinese rulers ?

  • Schythians

    Votes: 53 50.5%
  • Indians

    Votes: 18 17.1%
  • Vietnamese

    Votes: 20 19.0%
  • Japanese

    Votes: 49 46.7%
  • Koreans

    Votes: 47 44.8%

  • Total voters
    105
I mean, the Tocharians were right there. I wish they could, but they never seemed to have the numbers to be able to make a serious attempt at conquering the middle kingdom.
 

Vuu

Banned
That could be also an interesting option, though they would have to have a big population

The best way to really conquer it is to go early prior to the creation of a chinese identity the invader will fins himself not sinicizing, because all there is is a bunch of squabbling culturally diverse statelets
 
The Joseon Korea can claim to be the successors of Tang.
Eh, why the Tang? I mean, they claimed to be the successors of the Confucian world and the Ming (but it's not like Joseon Korea was ever in a position to conquer anyone once Injo took the throne) after the latter fell to the Manchu but the Tang? There's about a 500 year gap between the Tang and Joseon and I'm not quite sure as to the links between them.
 
Eh, why the Tang? I mean, they claimed to be the successors of the Confucian world and the Ming (but it's not like Joseon Korea was ever in a position to conquer anyone once Injo took the throne) after the latter fell to the Manchu but the Tang? There's about a 500 year gap between the Tang and Joseon and I'm not quite sure as to the links between them.
The Joseon rulers are related to the Tang Dynasty(Lee), in the same way as the first Jin Dynasty is related to Qing.
 
The Joseon rulers are related to the Tang Dynasty(Lee), in the same way as the first Jin Dynasty is related to Qing.
Well, I'll be damned. So it appears...The Jeonju Yi clan (Yi Seong-gye being of this particular clan) claims descent from the Tang dynasty? Putting military capabilities aside because the Joseon were never a serious threat to any Chinese dynasty, I guess that could work to some extent?
That would be silly lol,unless they were to go as far as to actually forge their ancestry,just like the rulers of Southern Tang did.
I mean...apparently they were related, according at some records, though I have no clue as to their veracity. Just did a cursory search but it seems that it's a thing and not just a random guess based on sharing the surname.

Well, damn. That...that gives me a couple of ideas. Thank you @kasumigenx. TIL
 
Well, I'll be damned. So it appears...The Jeonju Yi clan (Yi Seong-gye being of this particular clan) claims descent from the Tang dynasty? Putting military capabilities aside because the Joseon were never a serious threat to any Chinese dynasty, I guess that could work to some extent?

I mean...apparently they were related, according at some records, though I have no clue as to their veracity. Just did a cursory search but it seems that it's a thing and not just a random guess based on sharing the surname.

Well, damn. That...that gives me a couple of ideas. Thank you @kasumigenx. TIL
Generally,people liked to make fancy claims about their ancestry.The actual rulers of Tang for example,claimed that they descended from the aristocratic Li Clan of Longxi while in actuality,most people at the time knew what their ancestors really were—lowly peasants,likely even Xianbei barbarians.
 
Generally,people liked to make fancy claims about their ancestry.The actual rulers of Tang for example,claimed that they descended from the aristocratic Li Clan of Longxi while in actuality,most people at the time knew what their ancestors really were—lowly peasants,likely even Xianbei barbarians.
Yeah, does make finding real genealogies pretty damn hard. And, honestly, I doubt the truth of it. But what really got me was that the Jeonju Yi's actually made that sort of claim (as outlandish as I find it) and, well, it does open up some opportunities for a timeline, I think.

Anyways, back to the actual thread, erm… Joseon would be interesting, yeah, with that new snippet in mind, the Scythians are the most likely, and the Japanese (Imperial, not Toyotomi) were the closest to conquering China (though that's post-1900). I do doubt Toyotomi Japan's capabilities to make the conquest, even with greater consolidation, seeing as Hideyoshi's common birth didn't afford him much legitimacy, the samurai needed some way to vent (and attacking Korea was only ever going to sink his support due to the quagmire it would be in almost any case, the 1592 invasion was hilariously in Hideyoshi's favour and even then a minor Ming intervention of 40k men sent his forces from Pyongyang back to Hanseong), and attacking Formosa, Manila, or Joseon Korea brings Japan into conflict with the Dutch, Iberians, or Chinese, all of whom have stronger navies than Japan. SE Asians are unlikely without an early POD and Indians would be absolutely hilarious.
 
Yeah, does make finding real genealogies pretty damn hard. And, honestly, I doubt the truth of it. But what really got me was that the Jeonju Yi's actually made that sort of claim (as outlandish as I find it) and, well, it does open up some opportunities for a timeline, I think.

Anyways, back to the actual thread, erm… Joseon would be interesting, yeah, with that new snippet in mind, the Scythians are the most likely, and the Japanese (Imperial, not Toyotomi) were the closest to conquering China (though that's post-1900). I do doubt Toyotomi Japan's capabilities to make the conquest, even with greater consolidation, seeing as Hideyoshi's common birth didn't afford him much legitimacy, the samurai needed some way to vent (and attacking Korea was only ever going to sink his support due to the quagmire it would be in almost any case, the 1592 invasion was hilariously in Hideyoshi's favour and even then a minor Ming intervention of 40k men sent his forces from Pyongyang back to Hanseong), and attacking Formosa, Manila, or Joseon Korea brings Japan into conflict with the Dutch, Iberians, or Chinese, all of whom have stronger navies than Japan. SE Asians are unlikely without an early POD and Indians would be absolutely hilarious.
Generally speaking,claims are only treated as valid if the history books or headstones of mauseleums mention something about a continuous lineage, like mentioning what ancestor A did,that ancestor B is the son of ancestor A and then what he did etc.Nobody treated the Tang descent from the Longxi Lis as serious because the closest authentic Longxi Li member they claimed to have descended from was centuries away from the Tang Dynasty,and that they could not provide further verified family members between that Longxi Li member and Li Hu(the grandfather of the first Tang emperor).
 
My favorite invasion of China what if is Timur, not so much for his chances of success, but just seeing it unfold. Like the route from where he died to Xian (idk if he was going straight for the Chinese heartland or trying to link up with the Northern Yuan first), I ballpark traced that to ~2500 miles through some pretty rough terrain, following the Silk Road routes.
 

Kaze

Banned
Scythians -
771 BC would be a good point of doing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bao_Si

The Sythians and Quanrong Nomads were used by the Marquis to restore his nephew to the Throne, they proceeded to loot, pilliage, and carry off the Nine-Tripod Cauldrons.
In a differant timeline the Sythians / Quanrong could kill the Marquis and his son and take over.


India -
How are they invading?

Vietnam.
Possible. They have had several battles with China

Korea.
On the backdoor and possible in quite a few dynasties. As recent as the Injo of Joseon and Hyojong of Joseon (3 July 1619 – 23 June 1659) , who laid down plans to invade Manchuria and the Qing before his demise.

Japan.
Hidyoshi's plan was doomed to failure.
 
Korea.
On the backdoor and possible in quite a few dynasties. As recent as the Injo of Joseon and Hyojong of Joseon (3 July 1619 – 23 June 1659) , who laid down plans to invade Manchuria and the Qing before his demise.
Can't say I agree with that assessment. No nation based in the peninsula was ever really poised for a conquest of China (the Goguryeo victory over the Sui in a defensive war was the most any Korean dynasty got. Maybe if they'd united the peninsula...but that's still a long shot, since it was partially terrain that gave them that victory), especially after the Imjin War, Yi Gwal's revolt, and the Manchu invasions completely destabilized the Joseon over the course of 40 years. Injo and Hyojong were both a bit deluded when it came to the Manchu (hence Manchu invasions 1 and 2 during Injo's reign) and Hyojong's Northern Expedition was doomed the second Han soldiers starting defecting en masse, which is to say before he became king. Attacking the Qing during the Revolt of the 3 Feudatories, well, I don't know enough about that particular timeframe to make any judgments except it's still not likely, fighting the Qing and then the warlords fighting for dominance in the south.
 

Kaze

Banned
You have forgotten that some of the Jin Dynasty Jurchens ancestors came from modern day North Korean territory or nearby that region. In a different turn of events - it could have been Korea itself taking the Jurchen's place.

I will agree with you that it would be a long shot for Korea to do it.

The first problem you have outlined - united the Peninsula, which will be a problem for any Korean conqueror - he will waste so much money and manpower to do it that by the time he would be ready to turn around to deal with China, he would die of old age.

The second part is the invasion itself - it might not go so well, as pointed out by the Sui victories and the early Tang defeats.
If we go with a Korean / Jurchen alliance - it could be possible to have a good part of Northern China.

As for the later Events during the Qing Dynasty, it was only a planned attack - it is like the US before Pearl Harbor planning an invasion of Canada (There was a plan to do it, but it only existed on paper) and by the time the War started, the invasion plan now lines the back drawers of the National Archives as some bit off fluff) - it is always good to have a good battle plan if things went badly or went your way. Unfortunately, the successors of Hyojong of Joseon were Manchu Puppets and decided to trash the plan and never use it other than lining a birdcage.
 
Top