Originally China in general was lime green, however as things developed it became apparent that we needed another color since China split-up so many times and, especially needed them in the modern era as a result of their having been three different states claiming to be China that existed at various times alongside one another.
Poll: What colour should China be?
- Thread starter Lowtuff
- Start date
Originally China in general was lime green, however as things developed it became apparent that we needed another color since China split-up so many times and, especially needed them in the modern era as a result of their having been three different states claiming to be China that existed at various times alongside one another.
TheOtherSasquatch
Banned
I actually count Imperial, Republican (with KMT and the Beiyang government coexisting at one point and Chiang Kai-Shek and Wang Jingwei at another), and Communist.
Ah. I misread Iori's post as "upt to three different states claiming to be China alongside each other", i.e. simultaneously.
Alex Richards
Donor
Gold shows up absolutely abysmally against Japanese Yellow.
Also, going by that reasoning the Han should be Red, and the Yuan Black.
1. Japan being yellow has never made any sense to me. It should really be red (to go with the flag) or maybe blue (imperial military uniforms). But that's another topic altogether.
2. Not necessarily. Gold is the traditional colour of China, regardless of which dynasty was ruling.
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Alex Richards
Donor
1. Lack of contrast with the USSR and it's been that colour since 2005. Not to mention that using flags is a pretty bad idea all round as the Japanese Red is also present as dominant elements on the flags of Turkey, Denmark and Norway among others.
2. Not really. Gold is the traditional colour of the Emperor. If anything Red is the traditional colour of China, being the colour used for the Han Chinese and used the represent the nation. Blue or Black were used for the gods.
1. Well if using flags is a bad idea, how come Czarist flag gold is used for Russia? The colours on a colour scheme should be indicative of the nation in question, and not just a random colour. In that respect, flags, military uniforms, traditional colours, common colours on a map et al should be the first port of call when deciding colours for nations. Besides, you could have a very dark form of the red on Japan's flag to contrast with the USSR and Korea, or a blue colour of some sort. But anyway, the colour of Japan is for another topic discussion.
2. On the contrary, gold suits perfectly for a monarchist China, as you said, being the colour for the Emperor. The lime green makes no sense whatsoever. Nor does the green for a republican China, which makes it seem Islamic. At the very least, gold could be used for a foreign-ruled China, a la Qing dynasty or Yuan dynasty.
EDIT: One could even use the darkish gold of the Junior Chinese State colour for the above.
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personally, i think i'll be using most of these colors in TACOS when it gets to that
i thought lime green was used for Australia?
Originally, clours didn't came from flags but from colours used on historical atlas about WW2.
Then colours from flags were used, and as colours are somewhat in short supply if you don't see infrared and ultraviolet, we used random colours.
No. Again, because colors come in short supply and that flags, uniforms and such tend to use the same patterns of colours (red being used by almost everyone and the same for blue and gold).
What decides of the use of a color is the readability of the map, not being stuck to traditional colours.
We can debate all night about what colours would be best fitting, it's not the point that is if we use only "traditional" colors, we gonna use 4, maybe 5 colors for all countries and dyou only have that of nuances you can have.
I'm not saying we use only traditional colours for countries, but a combination of research into trad. colours, flag colours, and the others I listed, should give reasonable scope for coming up with apt and suiting colours for nations, rather than just assigning random colours for nations, which I think is rather silly and pointless.
Alex Richards
Donor
1. Czarist Gold is meant to invoke the wealth and glittering iconography of the Imperial Court and Russian Orthodoxy. It's a pretty broad statement but then in 2005 it could be seing as there were only a handful of colours.
2. That creates huge knock on effects to change it now though. If China becomes Gold for the entire period before 1912 (and seeing as we use the two china colours to demonstrate dynastic wars and invasions and the existence of complex rival governments in the warlord era making it an explicitly Imperial colour would necessitate at least 1, maybe 2 more standard Chinese colours), then the colours of Japan and Russia need to change to improve contrast. Japan could go to Red, which would require changing Korea also. Meanwhile changing Russia is what brought about the colour wars, and basically gives us the situation of using Red (which is Soviet), white (obviously not), Black (ditto), Blue (we've already got Sweden, France, Venice, Serbia...) or Green (which contrasts horribly with the Ottomans, hence why I really tend not to use it except for Kerensky's republic in the Civil War). This is without even going into the amount of furore it would create on the forum.
Do you know how many countries are predominately associated with Red, White and/or Blue?
UK, USA, all the Slavic Countries except Bulgaria, Canada, New Zealand, Japan, Argentina, Peru, all of Central America, most of the Caribbean, France, Denmark, Norway, Iceland, Finland, Latvia, most of the Pacific Islands, Korea, the nation of China and, Switzerland and, to a large degree, Russia and Austria (though Black and Gold are also traditional in these areas).
The entire Middle East, Iran and Pakistan are traditionally associated with Green, Black and (to a lesser extent) Red, while all of Sub-Saharan Africa is Red/Yellow/Green/Black. South Africa, India and the Dutch provide a slight relief with Orange, but Purple is pretty much only associated with Imperial Rome/Byzantines (beyond German atlases, but that's getting into a whole different kettle of cultural fish).
And this is the basic problem. By and large neighbouring countries tend to share similar colour associations, whereas what we want is contrast between neighbours.
I'm NOT saying only trad. colours. There are many ports of call one can use to find suitable colours to make sure the colour association problem doesn't arise, like common colours on old antique maps, and making colonial successor state colours. All I'm saying is that throwing random colours at nations which have no connection whatsoever isn't the best approach.
Russia wouldn't need to change. The Qing dynasty flag is a sprt of orange-yellow which contrasts nicely with Russia's gold when I've experimented with it on maps, along with the other changes to Japan and Korea.
Alex Richards
Donor
Unfortunately that's not an option for most cases. Simply put, most 'old maps' do not have anything like consistent colours for Syria, or Iraq, or Romania. Or anything from the 20th century really. And frankly most of the states remaining are ones where a colonial successor is wholly innappropriate (and would require somehow getting at least 5 Spanish colonial successors in any case).
So sooner or later we have to basically go for 'random colours' anyway, so it doesn't make sense to change what isn't broken for the sake of some unattainable notion of consistency when it involves changing colours and associations that are basically as traditional to this board as the atlas colour choices are for their medium.
Lime Green (5) for Qing/Manchu Chinese Empire (and for any kind of Manchuria if it isnt part of China).
Dark Green (4) for Southern China (Song) and a Chinese Republic.
Pink (8) for the PRC (even if its democratically and capitalist; when it calls itself PRC then it will still be pink. Also because of Taiwan).
The same way Gold is for Tsarist Russia, Green for 'democratic' Russia (I mean Putin) and Red for Communist Russia (or any other USSR analogue).
Dark Green (4) for Southern China (Song) and a Chinese Republic.
Pink (8) for the PRC (even if its democratically and capitalist; when it calls itself PRC then it will still be pink. Also because of Taiwan).
The same way Gold is for Tsarist Russia, Green for 'democratic' Russia (I mean Putin) and Red for Communist Russia (or any other USSR analogue).