POLL: Most likely to Industrialize...

Most Likely Birthplace of Islamic Industrialization?


  • Total voters
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... in a world dominated by Islam.

To paint a clearer picture, most of this alternate world is dominated by Islamic polities. Iberia solidly Muslim, as is much of Italy, southern Russia/the Caucasus/Ukraine, and possibly parts of southern France and the Balkans. West and East Africa as far inland as Lake Victoria - Muslim. Central Asia - Muslim. India - mostly ruled by Muslim polities, ditto for Southeast Asia.
Islam was the primary colonizing force in the New World(s), with the *Americas and *Australia firmly part of the Ummah.

There were no Crusades or Mongol Invasions in this timeline, and the Islamic world has developed the scientific method and all the social/economic/political/technological prerequisites for industrialization.

But which part of the Dar al-Islam tips the balance and industrialized first? Which part of this world - mostly based on availability of resources - is most likely to be the home of the alt-Industrial Revolution?
 
I'll throw my ballot in for Spain here, as there are abundant sources of coal and iron on the peninsula. Further, philosophy and the sciences thrived there, and Seville and Cordoba, two of its most major centers, are both situated on the Guadalquivir, offering plenty of spots for watermills to drive early machinery. It also had a rather high population, so it has that going for it, too.
 

Deleted member 67076

Hmm, the Sahel states, with their love of canals and trade might be contender, but I don't know about their resource status.
 
Hmm, the Sahel states, with their love of canals and trade might be contender, but I don't know about their resource status.

This map (admittedly more a political map than a resources map) seems to indicate that there's significant amounts of iron in Mauritania, and I'm pretty sure that there's more not far off in Liberia and Guinea. Unfortunately, it says nothing of coal and other early industrial resources, but it's the best I could find with just a cursory search.

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EDIT:

This has more to say on the matter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_ore_in_Africa

Doesn't seem like there's any significant coal mining in Africa outside of South Africa?
 

Deleted member 67076

This map (admittedly more a political map than a resources map) seems to indicate that there's significant amounts of iron in Mauritania, and I'm pretty sure that there's more not far off in Liberia and Guinea. Unfortunately, it says nothing of coal and other early industrial resources, but it's the best I could find with just a cursory search.

EDIT:

This has more to say on the matter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_ore_in_Africa

Doesn't seem like there's any significant coal mining in Africa outside of South Africa?

Problem is Mauritania is extremely dry land with few rivers, so transport might be an issue. Also very flat (I've no idea how that would affect things)

I suppose these things could be circumnavigated by means of a large Sahelian Empire like Songhai or Mali, though.

Now that I think about it, a large, centralized Sahelian state that has a monopoly on trade routes and a large amount of capital might do the trick.
 
Problem is Mauritania is extremely dry land with few rivers, so transport might be an issue. Also very flat (I've no idea how that would affect things)

I suppose these things could be circumnavigated by means of a large Sahelian Empire like Songhai or Mali, though.

Now that I think about it, a large, centralized Sahelian state that has a monopoly on trade routes and a large amount of capital might do the trick.

Hmm, so OTL Songhai with another couple hundred years on its lifespan?
 
What about the east? I know Baghdad and other Mesopotamian cities were key centers of learning during the Islamic golden age so could there be a rediscovery of Hero of Alexandria's steam engine and a decision to try building them to power more things? IDk just spitballing here.
 
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What Arabo-Islamic world (taken as as far it can reasonably expand, so no wank or "Islam stays forever" ASB) at his disposition are few coal and lignite deposite.

Considering that only Iran had large deposits, if the OTL model of industrialization must be copy/pasted, I'll bet my money on this.

That said, considering that Arabo-Islamic economic impetus were often a bureaucratic/palatial concern, I would think that a Fatimid-like empire spawning from Morroco to Ethiopia would have better chances with ressources being carried to its centers.
 

Deleted member 67076

Hmm, so OTL Songhai with another couple hundred years on its lifespan?
Possibly. Although I don't know how much the trends were with regards to production, population and trade, so I can't confirm anything.
 
What Arabo-Islamic world (taken as as far it can reasonably expand, so no wank or "Islam stays forever" ASB) at his disposition are few coal and lignite deposite.

Considering that only Iran had large deposits, if the OTL model of industrialization must be copy/pasted, I'll bet my money on this.

That said, considering that Arabo-Islamic economic impetus were often a bureaucratic/palatial concern, I would think that a Fatimid-like empire spawning from Morroco to Ethiopia would have better chances with ressources being carried to its centers.

When you except areas which eventually left Islamic rule, yes, Greater Persia is far and ahead the most likely candidate.
 
When you except areas which eventually left Islamic rule, yes, Greater Persia is far and ahead the most likely candidate.

I meant more aeras that couldn't have, in an ATL not radically different from OTL been under maintained Arabo-Islamic rule.
Balkans or Ethiopia are regions that could by exemple, while Iberia and South Italy are two no-go.

The problem is that the coal deposits avaible are all placed in peripherical regions, preventing a possible local industrial center to appear on its own in most of cases.

Egypt is well placed as a node for trade roads and relativly close from Ethiopia, Turkey or Morroco, and could hope becoming sort of "Brazil" equivalent regarding industrialisation.

On the other hand, Persia was one of the relativly few stable entities of Arabo-Islamic world and could reach and take control relativly easily of Central Asia.

And of course, use of oil instead of coal during the first industrialisation shouldn't be forgotten, making Iraq and Middle-East having a relativly good run.
 

Maur

Banned
105414-004-7B3E5668.gif


What Arabo-Islamic world (taken as as far it can reasonably expand, so no wank or "Islam stays forever" ASB) at his disposition are few coal and lignite deposite.

Considering that only Iran had large deposits, if the OTL model of industrialization must be copy/pasted, I'll bet my money on this.

That said, considering that Arabo-Islamic economic impetus were often a bureaucratic/palatial concern, I would think that a Fatimid-like empire spawning from Morroco to Ethiopia would have better chances with ressources being carried to its centers.
Looking at this map (where is it from, btw?) and following OP situation, its Bengal (good because it had the other things for industrialization), Persia (somewhat less) and Ukraine (even less, although since theres no Mongol Khanate, it might not be as emptied).
 

Krall

Banned
Hmm, the Sahel states, with their love of canals and trade might be contender, but I don't know about their resource status.

I've had a look, and my Google-fu has produced a few maps on the subject.

Firstly, a USGS map of coal in Africa:
Africa_Coal.png


Most of it seems to be in southern Africa, but there are significant deposits in West Africa, some of which would be in easy reach of Mali or Songhai (specifically the deposits in Senegal, Mali, and Niger), whilst the rest could be accessed by a more expansionist Mali or Songhai that conquers their way down the Niger river to modern day Nigeria.

Secondly, a map of mineral resources in Africa:
africa-mineral-map.jpg


It's hard to tell the difference between iron and lead on that map, but it seems like there's a *lot* in Guinea/Sierra Leone/Liberia, and some in Nigeria.

These maps confirm the presence of iron in that region:
image005.jpg

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Whilst the concentration of iron ore in Guinea/Sierra Leone/Liberia isn't within the OTL borders of Mali or Songhai, I wouldn't say it's impossible that they could come to rule the region in an ATL. Difficult though; I believe the area is covered by dense rainforest.
 
I would put my money on Iberia or Morrocco since those regions have the best access to the Americas. My reasoning being that I buy into the theory that contact with the Americas led to American crops crossing over to Europe, triggering an agricultural revolution that then gave Europe the surplus wealth to be the first region to industrialize. So a position to be among the first or second adopters of new American crops is, I think, a major advantage. As with Christian Spain, a Muslim power colonizing or trading with the Americas would need to play its cards right, otherwise it could end up wasting its resources and giving away their lead to other Christian or Muslim centers though.

fasquardon
 

SunDeep

Banned
If you want a scenario where some analogies can be drawn with our own IR, and assuming that it's part of the Muslim-dominated East Africa, Madagascar could be a very different, unusual but still extremely plausible option to take the place of Great Britain ITTL and become the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution. Required industrial resources like iron and coal are available in abundance on the island, and it would occupy a similar place in TTL's world order to GB, as an outlying island fortress, protected from external conflict and foreign invasions by the ocean, situated on the outskirts of the Islamic world and possessing room for colonial expansion (perhaps the Islamic Madagascan colonial empire already includes Western Australia ITTL, along with some of OTL's Indonesia, further boosting its chances)?
 
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From my layman point of view, it looks like Iberia has geographical features better suited for transportation than Persia. Coal deposits are absolutely vital, but so are natural waterways etc.
 
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